& cplSiteName &
Video

Bad News for Bonded Copper?

6/23/2010
50%
50%
Newest First  |  Oldest First  |  Threaded View        ADD A COMMENT
Page 1 / 3   >   >>
billy_fold
50%
50%
billy_fold,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 4:31:32 PM
re: Bad News for Bonded Copper?


Unfortunately, this type of thinking is exactly why AT&T has major bandwidth restrictions to its cell towers and will have for the forseeable future.  Anyone care to guess how long it will take them to plow fiber to all their cell towers?  Plus microwave is much less reliable, much more costly, and produces much less bandwidth than bonded copper.


-Billy

pdonegan67
50%
50%
pdonegan67,
User Rank: Light Sabre
12/5/2012 | 4:31:18 PM
re: Bad News for Bonded Copper?




AT&T is no different to most incumbent operators in its outlook for using bonded copper for mobile backhaul.  In his comments, Yiannis stresses the importance of “very low latency, jitter and packet loss” in the backhaul network. He also states that while AT&T will primarily drive fiber and microwave into the backhaul network to support growing data traffic, he still leaves the door open to the possibility of a “small percentage” of cell sites being supported by bonded copper in the future. With one or two exceptions, you would be hard pushed to find many leading mobile operators around the world that have a substantially different view from that. Of the small handful of operators I’m aware of that may see a large share of their cell sites supported by bonded copper backhaul, most have it down as an option if they move forward with large femtocell deployments. Say what you like about AT&T, but there is nothing unusual about their outlook here.




stanhubbard
50%
50%
stanhubbard,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 4:31:16 PM
re: Bad News for Bonded Copper?


Seven,


I think there's truth in saying that the economic slowdown has helped extend the useful life of the copper network for many operators because there is less money to invest in their fiber access networks.


On the other hand, the slowdown reduced the overall amount of money available to invest in E-o-bonded copper pair equipment and likely reduced the pace of E-o-bonded copper pair platform adoption for customers with limited access to capital.


Stan

paolo.franzoi
50%
50%
paolo.franzoi,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 4:31:16 PM
re: Bad News for Bonded Copper?


Stan,


Isn't the whole Ethernet over Copper driven by the global slowdown?  Simple way (sort of) to upgrade customers with a cash flow based solution.


There are issues with pair availability and quality of course.


seven


 

stanhubbard
50%
50%
stanhubbard,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 4:31:16 PM
re: Bad News for Bonded Copper?


While E-o-bonded copper deployments for mobile backhaul aplications have been limited, E-o-bonded copper technology is ideal if you are service provider looking to extend the value of your copper network and deliver mid band Ethernet services for business customers.


As one operator told me, the "sales guys love it" because they can shift existing T1 customers to higher speeds at attractive prices. And we're talking about an ROI that can be less than 6 months.


The E-o-bonded copper pair access platform market grew 27% year-over-year in the four quarter period ending in 1Q10. The first quarter also was a record quarter for E-o-bonded copper pair sales -- pretty impressive given that the global economy remains sluggish.


I'll be posting a column on the carrier Ethernet access platform (CEAP) market soon that will provide an update on E-o-bonded copper, E-o-TDM access circuit, and E-o-fiber demarcation/access switch sales.


- Stan


 


 

paolo.franzoi
50%
50%
paolo.franzoi,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 4:31:15 PM
re: Bad News for Bonded Copper?


 


Stan,


Here is my "yeah but"


I am aware that there are EoCu solutions that are box on each side - not DSLAM + Modem like.  That would seem to me to be a pretty simple sell internally.  There is really no upfront CAPEX until a sale is made.  Which is why your commentary about the Sales guys loving it is the key here.


So, I am actually in the process of buying a 100 Mb/s Ethernet service as we speak (this will be delivered over fiber in my particular case).  The time to deliver is 60 - 90 days.  Not a big deal for me, because I am switching providers and am timing this to be near the end of my other contract (I want both in place for a bit of time to allow us to do the switchover).  Given product leadtime, I can imagine that one could buy the products at the time of the order or use a pull system for inventory replenishment.


From all of this, I can say that cash is expended really close to the start of return from the end customer.  This is a nice little business while it works, the only issue really arises when it doesn't.  The service provider is rather screwed then.


seven


 

paolo.franzoi
50%
50%
paolo.franzoi,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 4:31:13 PM
re: Bad News for Bonded Copper?


billy,


Since this is a 3G going to a 4G upgrade, I will need 100 Mb/s symmetric at 10-11 BER.  How many pairs of copper do you need?  You were fine at 10 Mb/s and even then there were issues.  At 100 Mb/s symmetric, EoCu is dead.


 


seven


 

billy_fold
50%
50%
billy_fold,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 4:31:13 PM
re: Bad News for Bonded Copper?


I really hate to disagree with you and Yiannis and AT&T and all the other mobile operators that agree with them, but bonded copper is low latency (less than 2 milliseconds one way from device to device), low jitter (less than 1 millisecond) and very low packet loss (approaching 99.999% availability).  Plus it is highly reliable since it uses multiple pairs (it can automatically add and remove pairs hitlessly from the bonded group and still keep passing traffic).  For Yiannis and you to say that is OK to allocate a "small percentage" misses the point.  It's almost like you all are saying that bonded copper is an inferior technology so we will only allocate a small percentage of the total to it.  Bonded copper is capable of SLAs that are similar to fiber SLAs.  It is time to wake up and smell the roses.  Sorry.


-billy

paolo.franzoi
50%
50%
paolo.franzoi,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 4:31:12 PM
re: Bad News for Bonded Copper?


 


You can do this at 12 kft with no repeaters?


10 - 9 is NOT fiber quality.


 


seven


 


PS - The normal issue at 10 Mb/s is that you really need 4 - 5 pairs which are not available.

billy_fold
50%
50%
billy_fold,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 4:31:12 PM
re: Bad News for Bonded Copper?


Seven,


I can do about 50 Mbps symetrical using 8 copper pairs.  It would take me about 16 pairs to do 100 Mbps symetrical.  There is normally a 25 pair binder running out to the cell site so bandwidth should not be an issue.  I can get 10-9 BER pretty easily and even higher depending on some other factors.  So what were these other issues that you had at 10 Mbps symmetrical?


-billy

Page 1 / 3   >   >>
From The Founder
The time has come for a telecom app store to save the industry.
Flash Poll
Live Streaming Video
Charting the CSP's Future
Six different communications service providers join to debate their visions of the future CSP, following a landmark presentation from AT&T on its massive virtualization efforts and a look back on where the telecom industry has been and where it's going from two industry veterans.
LRTV Documentaries
Order From Chaos: The Steve Saunders BCE Keynote

5|24|17   |   17:27   |   (0) comments


Kicking off BCE 2017, Light Reading founder Steve Saunders lays blame for NFV's slow ramp-up and urges telecom to return to old-fashioned standards building and interoperability testing.
Think of this as the video sequel to the recent columns he's written about NFV and the prospect of a telecom app store. (See

LRTV Documentaries
Service Provider Panel: Partnering in the Digital Era

5|22|17   |     |   (0) comments


Coopetition has always been part of telecom, but the ecosphere now includes data centers, vendors, apps developers, cloud service providers and Internet content providers. This BCE 2017 panel explores the new attitudes among network operators as to the value and variety of ...
LRTV Interviews
Site Demo: AT&T's IoT Flow Platform

5|19|17   |   04:25   |   (0) comments


At AT&T's R&D center in Tel Aviv, Israel, project leader Eyal Segev talks about the operator's Flow platform and how it helps to prototype IoT applications.
LRTV Documentaries
Agent of Change: A Q&A With AT&T's John Donovan

5|18|17   |     |   (0) comments


Carol Wilson talks with the man leading AT&T's transformation efforts about the challenge of change.
LRTV Documentaries
BCE Service Provider Panel: The New Business Realities

5|18|17   |     |   (0) comments


For virtualization to happen, the telecom industry first has to grapple with key functional aspects of SDN and NFV that need to be universal, such as onboarding of virtualized network functions and federation of software-defined networks.
LRTV Interviews
BCE Service Provider Keynote: CenturyLink

5|16|17   |   22:32   |   (0) comments


Aamir Hussain leads the Product Development and Technology organization at CenturyLink, which includes the company's information technology function. He is an experienced senior technology executive with more than 25 years of proven success in the implementation of global technology operations, operationalization of complex technology, infrastructures and business ...
LRTV Interviews
CenturyLink CTO on Transformation

5|16|17   |   7:43   |   (0) comments


The 50-year-old telco has already gone through several transformations, including every time it made an acquisition, but its purchase of Level 3 coupled with changes in technology and customer expectations necessitates its biggest transformation yet.
LRTV Documentaries
Light Reading Hall of Fame 2017

5|15|17   |   5:05   |   (1) comment


Find out who made it into Light Reading's Hall of Fame this year.
LRTV Interviews
Site Visit: AT&T's Tel Aviv R&D Center

5|15|17   |   09:58   |   (1) comment


Nir Shalom, general manager and VP of application development at AT&T Israel, talks about the key service developments undertaken at the AT&T R&D facility in Tel Aviv and how the team there has adopted new ways of working.
Telecom Innovators Video Showcase
Act on Your Intelligence With Amdocs aia!

5|15|17   |     |   (0) comments


Amdocs CMO Gary Miles explains how communications service providers can seize the AI opportunity with Amdocs real-time digital intelligence platform.
LRTV Interviews
Logtel CEO: Making Sense of IoT

5|15|17   |   09:48   |   (0) comments


Jacques Bensimon, founder and CEO of Tel Aviv-based training and consultancy Logtel, talks about the need to make IoT more than just a buzzword.
LRTV Huawei Video Resource Center
The Challenges of Mobile Banking Implementation

5|12|17   |     |   (0) comments


Kamal Quadir of bKash Limited explains the challenges and needs of implementing mobile banking in the Bangladesh market.
Infographics
With the mobile ecosystem becoming increasingly vulnerable to security threats, AdaptiveMobile has laid out some of the key considerations for the wireless community.
Hot Topics
AT&T's Donovan: Women Adapt Faster Than Men
Sarah Thomas, Director, Women in Comms, 5/18/2017
Verizon on M&A: Who Needs a Cableco?
Mari Silbey, Senior Editor, Cable/Video, 5/17/2017
Fright Wigs & Cocktails: BCE 2017 in Pics
Mitch Wagner, Editor, Enterprise Cloud, 5/19/2017
Standardization Needs Room for Innovation
Mitch Wagner, Editor, Enterprise Cloud, 5/17/2017
What's Blocking 4K TV Today
Alan Breznick, Cable/Video Practice Leader, Light Reading, 5/22/2017
Like Us on Facebook
Twitter Feed
BETWEEN THE CEOs - Executive Interviews
One of the nice bits of my job (other than the teeny tiny salary, obviously) is that I get to pick and choose who I interview for this slot on the Light Reading home ...
TEOCO Founder and CEO Atul Jain talks to Light Reading Founder and CEO Steve Saunders about the challenges around cost control and service monetization in the mobile and IoT sectors.
Animals with Phones
What Brogrammers Look Like to the Rest of Us Click Here
Live Digital Audio

Playing it safe can only get you so far. Sometimes the biggest bets have the biggest payouts, and that is true in your career as well. For this radio show, Caroline Chan, general manager of the 5G Infrastructure Division of the Network Platform Group at Intel, will share her own personal story of how she successfully took big bets to build a successful career, as well as offer advice on how you can do the same. We’ll cover everything from how to overcome fear and manage risk, how to be prepared for where technology is going in the future and how to structure your career in a way to ensure you keep progressing. Chan, a seasoned telecom veteran and effective risk taker herself, will also leave plenty of time to answer all your questions live on the air.