Light Reading
Video

Bad News for Bonded Copper?

50%
50%
Newest First  |  Oldest First  |  Threaded View        ADD A COMMENT
Page 1 / 3   >   >>
billy_fold
50%
50%
billy_fold,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 4:31:32 PM
re: Bad News for Bonded Copper?


Unfortunately, this type of thinking is exactly why AT&T has major bandwidth restrictions to its cell towers and will have for the forseeable future.  Anyone care to guess how long it will take them to plow fiber to all their cell towers?  Plus microwave is much less reliable, much more costly, and produces much less bandwidth than bonded copper.


-Billy

pdonegan67
50%
50%
pdonegan67,
User Rank: Light Sabre
12/5/2012 | 4:31:18 PM
re: Bad News for Bonded Copper?




AT&T is no different to most incumbent operators in its outlook for using bonded copper for mobile backhaul.  In his comments, Yiannis stresses the importance of “very low latency, jitter and packet loss” in the backhaul network. He also states that while AT&T will primarily drive fiber and microwave into the backhaul network to support growing data traffic, he still leaves the door open to the possibility of a “small percentage” of cell sites being supported by bonded copper in the future. With one or two exceptions, you would be hard pushed to find many leading mobile operators around the world that have a substantially different view from that. Of the small handful of operators I’m aware of that may see a large share of their cell sites supported by bonded copper backhaul, most have it down as an option if they move forward with large femtocell deployments. Say what you like about AT&T, but there is nothing unusual about their outlook here.




stanhubbard
50%
50%
stanhubbard,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 4:31:16 PM
re: Bad News for Bonded Copper?


Seven,


I think there's truth in saying that the economic slowdown has helped extend the useful life of the copper network for many operators because there is less money to invest in their fiber access networks.


On the other hand, the slowdown reduced the overall amount of money available to invest in E-o-bonded copper pair equipment and likely reduced the pace of E-o-bonded copper pair platform adoption for customers with limited access to capital.


Stan

paolo.franzoi
50%
50%
paolo.franzoi,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 4:31:16 PM
re: Bad News for Bonded Copper?


Stan,


Isn't the whole Ethernet over Copper driven by the global slowdown?  Simple way (sort of) to upgrade customers with a cash flow based solution.


There are issues with pair availability and quality of course.


seven


 

stanhubbard
50%
50%
stanhubbard,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 4:31:16 PM
re: Bad News for Bonded Copper?


While E-o-bonded copper deployments for mobile backhaul aplications have been limited, E-o-bonded copper technology is ideal if you are service provider looking to extend the value of your copper network and deliver mid band Ethernet services for business customers.


As one operator told me, the "sales guys love it" because they can shift existing T1 customers to higher speeds at attractive prices. And we're talking about an ROI that can be less than 6 months.


The E-o-bonded copper pair access platform market grew 27% year-over-year in the four quarter period ending in 1Q10. The first quarter also was a record quarter for E-o-bonded copper pair sales -- pretty impressive given that the global economy remains sluggish.


I'll be posting a column on the carrier Ethernet access platform (CEAP) market soon that will provide an update on E-o-bonded copper, E-o-TDM access circuit, and E-o-fiber demarcation/access switch sales.


- Stan


 


 

paolo.franzoi
50%
50%
paolo.franzoi,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 4:31:15 PM
re: Bad News for Bonded Copper?


 


Stan,


Here is my "yeah but"


I am aware that there are EoCu solutions that are box on each side - not DSLAM + Modem like.  That would seem to me to be a pretty simple sell internally.  There is really no upfront CAPEX until a sale is made.  Which is why your commentary about the Sales guys loving it is the key here.


So, I am actually in the process of buying a 100 Mb/s Ethernet service as we speak (this will be delivered over fiber in my particular case).  The time to deliver is 60 - 90 days.  Not a big deal for me, because I am switching providers and am timing this to be near the end of my other contract (I want both in place for a bit of time to allow us to do the switchover).  Given product leadtime, I can imagine that one could buy the products at the time of the order or use a pull system for inventory replenishment.


From all of this, I can say that cash is expended really close to the start of return from the end customer.  This is a nice little business while it works, the only issue really arises when it doesn't.  The service provider is rather screwed then.


seven


 

paolo.franzoi
50%
50%
paolo.franzoi,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 4:31:13 PM
re: Bad News for Bonded Copper?


billy,


Since this is a 3G going to a 4G upgrade, I will need 100 Mb/s symmetric at 10-11 BER.  How many pairs of copper do you need?  You were fine at 10 Mb/s and even then there were issues.  At 100 Mb/s symmetric, EoCu is dead.


 


seven


 

billy_fold
50%
50%
billy_fold,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 4:31:13 PM
re: Bad News for Bonded Copper?


I really hate to disagree with you and Yiannis and AT&T and all the other mobile operators that agree with them, but bonded copper is low latency (less than 2 milliseconds one way from device to device), low jitter (less than 1 millisecond) and very low packet loss (approaching 99.999% availability).  Plus it is highly reliable since it uses multiple pairs (it can automatically add and remove pairs hitlessly from the bonded group and still keep passing traffic).  For Yiannis and you to say that is OK to allocate a "small percentage" misses the point.  It's almost like you all are saying that bonded copper is an inferior technology so we will only allocate a small percentage of the total to it.  Bonded copper is capable of SLAs that are similar to fiber SLAs.  It is time to wake up and smell the roses.  Sorry.


-billy

paolo.franzoi
50%
50%
paolo.franzoi,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 4:31:12 PM
re: Bad News for Bonded Copper?


 


You can do this at 12 kft with no repeaters?


10 - 9 is NOT fiber quality.


 


seven


 


PS - The normal issue at 10 Mb/s is that you really need 4 - 5 pairs which are not available.

billy_fold
50%
50%
billy_fold,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 4:31:12 PM
re: Bad News for Bonded Copper?


Seven,


I can do about 50 Mbps symetrical using 8 copper pairs.  It would take me about 16 pairs to do 100 Mbps symetrical.  There is normally a 25 pair binder running out to the cell site so bandwidth should not be an issue.  I can get 10-9 BER pretty easily and even higher depending on some other factors.  So what were these other issues that you had at 10 Mbps symmetrical?


-billy

Page 1 / 3   >   >>
Flash Poll
From The Founder
Anshul Sadana answers questions from Steve Saunders, Light Reading's founder and CEO, about Arista's CloudVision, a global cloud network controller for workload orchestration and workflow automation delivering a turnkey solution for cloud networking.
Live Streaming Video
CLOUD / MANAGED SERVICES: Prepping Ethernet for the Cloud
Moderator: Ray LeMaistre Panelists: Jeremy Bye, Leonard Sheahan
Between the CEOs
Video Exclusive With Basil Alwan, Alcatel-Lucent

7|24|15   |   26:44   |   (4) comments


Basil Alwan, President of IP Routing & Transport at Alcatel-Lucent, discusses virtualization, cultural challenges, the capex crunch and more with Light Reading founder and CEO Steve Saunders.
LRTV Custom TV
VDF: Enable the Financial With Mobile Money

7|20|15   |   06:53   |   (0) comments


Ian Ravenscroft discusses how operators can expand to occupy the entire digital services value chain through service innovation.
LRTV Custom TV
Telefónica on OSS Transformation

7|20|15   |   06:01   |   (0) comments


Jose Gonzales discusses the details of Telefónica's operation transformation program.
LRTV Custom TV
Judi Achmadi on Huawei's Cloud Storage Solution

7|20|15   |   03:33   |   (0) comments


Judi discusses the key business goals of TelekomSigma's public cloud service and how Huawei's solution helps them address challenges.
LRTV Custom TV
KPN Enlightening Digital Business & IT Transformation

7|20|15   |   06:19   |   (0) comments


Rob de Beer discusses the changes that operators need to make with service innovation now coming from the Internet world.
LRTV Custom TV
Stratus Telco-Grade Cloud Solutions & NFV

7|20|15   |   07:34   |   (0) comments


Ali Kafel from Stratus Technologies addresses high-availability concerns within the telco industry with a solution that enables telcos to provide high-availability and stateful fault-tolerance using a software-based approach.
LRTV Documentaries
The Six Million Dollar Business Man

7|20|15   |   01:52   |   (0) comments


Steve Saunders, publisher. A man barely alive after an acquisition malfunction imploded the company he founded. Gentlemen, we can rebuild Light Reading. Better, faster, stronger.
Between the CEOs
CEO Chat With Anukool Lakhina, Guavus

7|20|15   |   38:51   |   (1) comment


Guavus CEO Anukool Lakhina talks to Light Reading founder and CEO Steve Saunders about the role of operational analytics in the communications services and networking sectors, particularly in relation to IoT.
LRTV Custom TV
IBM's Flash Storage With Intel QuickAssist

7|20|15   |   03:18   |   (0) comments


Intel's Bev Crair and IBM's Eric Herzog discuss how IBM's V9000 Flash Storage System has helped customers around the world. Featuring real-time compression powered by Intel QuickAssist Technology, the V9000 is a next-gen flash storage solution.
LRTV Huawei Video Resource Center
Thailand's AIS: Transforming to an FMC Operator

7|17|15   |   4:53   |   (0) comments


Saran Phaloprakarn, Senior VP of Fixed Broadband Business Management of Thailand's AIS, was a keynote speaker at the first Asia-Pacific Ultra Broadband Summit in Bangkok. In this video, he talks to Heavy Reading about transforming into an FMC (FBB+MBB+Content) operator.
LRTV Huawei Video Resource Center
Cambodia's TRC Discusses Its Plans for National Broadband

7|17|15   |   10:33   |   (0) comments


In this video, Chakyra Moa, Chairman of Telecommunication Regulator of Cambodia (TRC), talks in in-depth with Heavy Reading about the Cambodia's current telecom market and TRC's goals and expectations for the future.
LRTV Documentaries
5G Phone

7|16|15   |   2:09   |   (4) comments


A man has an opportunity to purchase the world's first working 5G phone. Imagine the possibilities...
Upcoming Live Events
September 16-17, 2015, The Westin Galleria Dallas, Dallas, TX
September 16, 2015, The Westin Galleria Dallas, Dallas, TX
September 16, 2015, The Westin Galleria Dallas, Dallas, TX
September 29-30, 2015, The Westin Grand Müchen, Munich, Germany
October 14-15, 2015, New Orleans Ernest N. Morial Convention Center, New Orleans, LA
November 5, 2015, Hilton Santa Clara, Santa Clara, CA
December 1, 2015, The Westin Times Square, New York City
All Upcoming Live Events
Infographics
Network operators start seeing savings from NFV in the first year, according to a study by Affirmed Networks and ACG.
Hot Topics
AT&T U-verse TV Hits the Skids
Alan Breznick, Cable/Video Practice Leader, 7/24/2015
Robbins Succeeds Chambers as Cisco Changes CEOs
Mitch Wagner, West Coast Bureau Chief, Light Reading, 7/27/2015
Qualcomm Wants FCC to Stay Out of LTE-U Fray
Sarah Thomas, Editorial Operations Director, 7/27/2015
RJio to Launch Its Own 4G Devices Brand
Gagandeep Kaur, Contributing Editor, 7/27/2015
Like Us on Facebook
Twitter Feed
September 22, 2015
Media Begins With “Me”
Webinar Archive
BETWEEN THE CEOs - Executive Interviews
Basil Alwan, President of IP Routing & Transport at Alcatel-Lucent, discusses virtualization, cultural challenges, the capex crunch and more with Light Reading founder and CEO Steve Saunders.
Guavus CEO Anukool Lakhina talks to Light Reading founder and CEO Steve Saunders about the role of operational analytics in the communications services and networking sectors, particularly in relation to IoT.
Cats with Phones
Distract-a-Cat Click Here
The vibrate function makes for a useful cat distraction.