& cplSiteName &
Video

Bad News for Bonded Copper?

6/23/2010
50%
50%
Newest First  |  Oldest First  |  Threaded View        ADD A COMMENT
Page 1 / 3   >   >>
billy_fold
50%
50%
billy_fold,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 4:31:32 PM
re: Bad News for Bonded Copper?


Unfortunately, this type of thinking is exactly why AT&T has major bandwidth restrictions to its cell towers and will have for the forseeable future.  Anyone care to guess how long it will take them to plow fiber to all their cell towers?  Plus microwave is much less reliable, much more costly, and produces much less bandwidth than bonded copper.


-Billy

pdonegan67
50%
50%
pdonegan67,
User Rank: Light Sabre
12/5/2012 | 4:31:18 PM
re: Bad News for Bonded Copper?




AT&T is no different to most incumbent operators in its outlook for using bonded copper for mobile backhaul.  In his comments, Yiannis stresses the importance of “very low latency, jitter and packet loss” in the backhaul network. He also states that while AT&T will primarily drive fiber and microwave into the backhaul network to support growing data traffic, he still leaves the door open to the possibility of a “small percentage” of cell sites being supported by bonded copper in the future. With one or two exceptions, you would be hard pushed to find many leading mobile operators around the world that have a substantially different view from that. Of the small handful of operators I’m aware of that may see a large share of their cell sites supported by bonded copper backhaul, most have it down as an option if they move forward with large femtocell deployments. Say what you like about AT&T, but there is nothing unusual about their outlook here.




stanhubbard
50%
50%
stanhubbard,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 4:31:16 PM
re: Bad News for Bonded Copper?


Seven,


I think there's truth in saying that the economic slowdown has helped extend the useful life of the copper network for many operators because there is less money to invest in their fiber access networks.


On the other hand, the slowdown reduced the overall amount of money available to invest in E-o-bonded copper pair equipment and likely reduced the pace of E-o-bonded copper pair platform adoption for customers with limited access to capital.


Stan

paolo.franzoi
50%
50%
paolo.franzoi,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 4:31:16 PM
re: Bad News for Bonded Copper?


Stan,


Isn't the whole Ethernet over Copper driven by the global slowdown?  Simple way (sort of) to upgrade customers with a cash flow based solution.


There are issues with pair availability and quality of course.


seven


 

stanhubbard
50%
50%
stanhubbard,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 4:31:16 PM
re: Bad News for Bonded Copper?


While E-o-bonded copper deployments for mobile backhaul aplications have been limited, E-o-bonded copper technology is ideal if you are service provider looking to extend the value of your copper network and deliver mid band Ethernet services for business customers.


As one operator told me, the "sales guys love it" because they can shift existing T1 customers to higher speeds at attractive prices. And we're talking about an ROI that can be less than 6 months.


The E-o-bonded copper pair access platform market grew 27% year-over-year in the four quarter period ending in 1Q10. The first quarter also was a record quarter for E-o-bonded copper pair sales -- pretty impressive given that the global economy remains sluggish.


I'll be posting a column on the carrier Ethernet access platform (CEAP) market soon that will provide an update on E-o-bonded copper, E-o-TDM access circuit, and E-o-fiber demarcation/access switch sales.


- Stan


 


 

paolo.franzoi
50%
50%
paolo.franzoi,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 4:31:15 PM
re: Bad News for Bonded Copper?


 


Stan,


Here is my "yeah but"


I am aware that there are EoCu solutions that are box on each side - not DSLAM + Modem like.  That would seem to me to be a pretty simple sell internally.  There is really no upfront CAPEX until a sale is made.  Which is why your commentary about the Sales guys loving it is the key here.


So, I am actually in the process of buying a 100 Mb/s Ethernet service as we speak (this will be delivered over fiber in my particular case).  The time to deliver is 60 - 90 days.  Not a big deal for me, because I am switching providers and am timing this to be near the end of my other contract (I want both in place for a bit of time to allow us to do the switchover).  Given product leadtime, I can imagine that one could buy the products at the time of the order or use a pull system for inventory replenishment.


From all of this, I can say that cash is expended really close to the start of return from the end customer.  This is a nice little business while it works, the only issue really arises when it doesn't.  The service provider is rather screwed then.


seven


 

paolo.franzoi
50%
50%
paolo.franzoi,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 4:31:13 PM
re: Bad News for Bonded Copper?


billy,


Since this is a 3G going to a 4G upgrade, I will need 100 Mb/s symmetric at 10-11 BER.  How many pairs of copper do you need?  You were fine at 10 Mb/s and even then there were issues.  At 100 Mb/s symmetric, EoCu is dead.


 


seven


 

billy_fold
50%
50%
billy_fold,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 4:31:13 PM
re: Bad News for Bonded Copper?


I really hate to disagree with you and Yiannis and AT&T and all the other mobile operators that agree with them, but bonded copper is low latency (less than 2 milliseconds one way from device to device), low jitter (less than 1 millisecond) and very low packet loss (approaching 99.999% availability).  Plus it is highly reliable since it uses multiple pairs (it can automatically add and remove pairs hitlessly from the bonded group and still keep passing traffic).  For Yiannis and you to say that is OK to allocate a "small percentage" misses the point.  It's almost like you all are saying that bonded copper is an inferior technology so we will only allocate a small percentage of the total to it.  Bonded copper is capable of SLAs that are similar to fiber SLAs.  It is time to wake up and smell the roses.  Sorry.


-billy

paolo.franzoi
50%
50%
paolo.franzoi,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 4:31:12 PM
re: Bad News for Bonded Copper?


 


You can do this at 12 kft with no repeaters?


10 - 9 is NOT fiber quality.


 


seven


 


PS - The normal issue at 10 Mb/s is that you really need 4 - 5 pairs which are not available.

billy_fold
50%
50%
billy_fold,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 4:31:12 PM
re: Bad News for Bonded Copper?


Seven,


I can do about 50 Mbps symetrical using 8 copper pairs.  It would take me about 16 pairs to do 100 Mbps symetrical.  There is normally a 25 pair binder running out to the cell site so bandwidth should not be an issue.  I can get 10-9 BER pretty easily and even higher depending on some other factors.  So what were these other issues that you had at 10 Mbps symmetrical?


-billy

Page 1 / 3   >   >>
Light Reading’s Upskill U is a FREE, interactive, online educational resource that delivers must-have education on themes that relate to the overall business transformation taking place in the communications industry.
NEXT COURSE
Wednesday, September 28, 1:00PM EDT
Gigabit 101
Will Barkis, Senior Technology Analyst, Orange
UPCOMING COURSE SCHEDULE
Friday, September 30, 1:00PM EDT
Gigabit & the Great Migration
Robert Howald, Vice President, Network Architecture, Comcast
Wednesday, October 5, 1:00PM EDT
Gigabit & Smart Cities
Joe Kochan, COO & Co-Founder, US Ignite
Friday, October 7, 1:00PM EDT
Gigabit & DOCSIS 3.1
Ty Pearman, Director, Access Architecture, Comcast
in association with:
From The Founder
Light Reading today starts a new voyage as part of a larger Enterprise.
Flash Poll
Live Streaming Video
Charting the CSP's Future
Six different communications service providers join to debate their visions of the future CSP, following a landmark presentation from AT&T on its massive virtualization efforts and a look back on where the telecom industry has been and where it's going from two industry veterans.
LRTV Interviews
Global Services: The $40B Face-Off

9|26|16   |   05:53   |   (1) comment


More service providers than ever before are battling it out to win a slice of what is now a $40 billion global communications services pie, explains Ovum Principal Analyst David Molony.
LRTV Documentaries
MEC Congress: The Key Takeaways

9|22|16   |   03:25   |   (3) comments


Three key takeaways from the Mobile Edge Computing (MEC) Congress in Munich, Germany.
Wagner’s Ring
Time to Shut Up About 'Dumb Pipes'

9|22|16   |     |   (12) comments


Service providers can't compete with OTT players. It just isn't in their DNA. Instead, service providers need to embrace what they're good at -- providing reliable, secure connectivity.
Wagner’s Ring
Keeping Your Tech Career Going After 50

9|21|16   |     |   (13) comments


How do you keep your career moving forward when you're past the half-century mark?
LRTV Interviews
Peering Into the Digital Future

9|20|16   |   04:25   |   (0) comments


Nick Thomas, practice leader of digital media at Ovum, talks about how digital transformation in the technology, media and telecom sectors will enable the development of a new range of applications and services for enterprises and consumers and how the upcoming Digital Futures event in London will examine ...
LRTV Custom TV
Napatech Tackles NFV's Major Challenge

9|7|16   |   08:42   |   (0) comments


One of the main challenges for network operators introducing NFV is to combine performance and flexibility in a cost-effective way, but there is a solution, explains Napatech's Dan Joe Barry.
LRTV Custom TV
Huawei Optical Innovation 2016

9|6|16   |     |   (0) comments


Highlights of the 2016 Huawei Optical Innovation forum.
LRTV Huawei Video Resource Center
Are You Ready for Huawei Connect 2016?

8|31|16   |     |   (0) comments


Join us for an exclusive sneak peak of Huawei Connect, an integrated conference for the global ICT ecosystem taking place in Shanghai.
Between the CEOs
CEO Chat: UXP's Gemini Waghmare

8|26|16   |     |   (0) comments


Light Reading CEO Steve Saunders and UXP Systems CEO Gemini Waghmare discuss the strategic importance of digital identity for operators in the midst of transformation.
LRTV Custom TV
F5 Virtual Network Function Integrations With Partner Orchestration Platform

8|24|16   |   6:38   |   (0) comments


F5's Kishore Patnam, product manager for F5's service provider solutions, discusses why service providers are moving towards virtualization and how his clients are utilizing F5's solutions.
Between the CEOs
CEO Chat: Intel's Alexis Black Bjorlin

8|17|16   |   06:23   |   (0) comments


Join us for an in-depth interview between Steve Saunders of Light Reading and Alexis Black Bjorlin of Intel as they discuss the release of the company's Silicon Photonics platform, its performance, long-term prospects, customer expectations and much more.
Telecom Innovators Video Showcase
Accelerating Telecom Digital Transformation With Nominum DNS

8|1|16   |   12:04   |   (0) comments


Light Reading's Steve Saunders gets an update from Nominum CEO Gary Messiana on how his company is helping carriers on the digital transformation journey.
Upcoming Live Events
November 3, 2016, The Montcalm Marble Arch, London
November 30, 2016, The Westin Times Square, New York City
December 1, 2016, The Westin Times Square, New York, NY
December 6-8, 2016, The Westin Excelsior, Rome
May 16-17, 2017, Austin Convention Center, Austin, TX
All Upcoming Live Events
Infographics
Hot Topics
Keeping Your Tech Career Going After 50
Mitch Wagner, West Coast Bureau Chief, Light Reading, 9/21/2016
Time to Shut Up About 'Dumb Pipes'
Mitch Wagner, West Coast Bureau Chief, Light Reading, 9/22/2016
Verizon CFO: Eat Our (Fixed) 5G Dust!
Dan Jones, Mobile Editor, 9/22/2016
Comcast Will Go Wireless in 2017
Mari Silbey, Senior Editor, Cable/Video, 9/20/2016
Like Us on Facebook
Twitter Feed
BETWEEN THE CEOs - Executive Interviews
Light Reading CEO Steve Saunders and UXP Systems CEO Gemini Waghmare discuss the strategic importance of digital identity for operators in the midst of transformation.
Join us for an in-depth interview between Steve Saunders of Light Reading and Alexis Black Bjorlin of Intel as they discuss the release of the company's Silicon Photonics platform, its performance, long-term prospects, customer expectations and much more.
Animals with Phones
You Thought Your Customer Service Was Unreliable... Click Here
Live Digital Audio

A vital part of increasing the number of women in comms is transforming the ways companies can support and empower women. While progressive company policies that support both men and women in achieving work-life balance are a step in the right direction, creating a company culture that supports those policies can at times be more challenging.

During this show, we'll talk to Lynn Comp, Senior Director of Industry and Sales Enabling (ISE) in the Network Platforms Group at Intel, about why those challenges exist and how companies can overcome them. She'll provide insight into how Intel has worked to create a culture that supports work-life balance, and provide steps and guidance for other companies wishing to do the same. We will also leave plenty of time to get your questions answered live on the air.