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AT&T's Yiannis Argyropoulos explains that bonded copper, while great for enterprises, is not as big of a deal as fiber and microwave technologies for carrier cell-site backhaul.
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Bad News for Bonded Copper?

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billy_fold
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billy_fold,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 4:31:32 PM
re: Bad News for Bonded Copper?


Unfortunately, this type of thinking is exactly why AT&T has major bandwidth restrictions to its cell towers and will have for the forseeable future.  Anyone care to guess how long it will take them to plow fiber to all their cell towers?  Plus microwave is much less reliable, much more costly, and produces much less bandwidth than bonded copper.


-Billy

pdonegan67
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pdonegan67,
User Rank: Light Sabre
12/5/2012 | 4:31:18 PM
re: Bad News for Bonded Copper?




AT&T is no different to most incumbent operators in its outlook for using bonded copper for mobile backhaul.  In his comments, Yiannis stresses the importance of “very low latency, jitter and packet loss” in the backhaul network. He also states that while AT&T will primarily drive fiber and microwave into the backhaul network to support growing data traffic, he still leaves the door open to the possibility of a “small percentage” of cell sites being supported by bonded copper in the future. With one or two exceptions, you would be hard pushed to find many leading mobile operators around the world that have a substantially different view from that. Of the small handful of operators I’m aware of that may see a large share of their cell sites supported by bonded copper backhaul, most have it down as an option if they move forward with large femtocell deployments. Say what you like about AT&T, but there is nothing unusual about their outlook here.




stanhubbard
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stanhubbard,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 4:31:16 PM
re: Bad News for Bonded Copper?


Seven,


I think there's truth in saying that the economic slowdown has helped extend the useful life of the copper network for many operators because there is less money to invest in their fiber access networks.


On the other hand, the slowdown reduced the overall amount of money available to invest in E-o-bonded copper pair equipment and likely reduced the pace of E-o-bonded copper pair platform adoption for customers with limited access to capital.


Stan

paolo.franzoi
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paolo.franzoi,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 4:31:16 PM
re: Bad News for Bonded Copper?


Stan,


Isn't the whole Ethernet over Copper driven by the global slowdown?  Simple way (sort of) to upgrade customers with a cash flow based solution.


There are issues with pair availability and quality of course.


seven


 

stanhubbard
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stanhubbard,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 4:31:16 PM
re: Bad News for Bonded Copper?


While E-o-bonded copper deployments for mobile backhaul aplications have been limited, E-o-bonded copper technology is ideal if you are service provider looking to extend the value of your copper network and deliver mid band Ethernet services for business customers.


As one operator told me, the "sales guys love it" because they can shift existing T1 customers to higher speeds at attractive prices. And we're talking about an ROI that can be less than 6 months.


The E-o-bonded copper pair access platform market grew 27% year-over-year in the four quarter period ending in 1Q10. The first quarter also was a record quarter for E-o-bonded copper pair sales -- pretty impressive given that the global economy remains sluggish.


I'll be posting a column on the carrier Ethernet access platform (CEAP) market soon that will provide an update on E-o-bonded copper, E-o-TDM access circuit, and E-o-fiber demarcation/access switch sales.


- Stan


 


 

paolo.franzoi
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paolo.franzoi,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 4:31:15 PM
re: Bad News for Bonded Copper?


 


Stan,


Here is my "yeah but"


I am aware that there are EoCu solutions that are box on each side - not DSLAM + Modem like.  That would seem to me to be a pretty simple sell internally.  There is really no upfront CAPEX until a sale is made.  Which is why your commentary about the Sales guys loving it is the key here.


So, I am actually in the process of buying a 100 Mb/s Ethernet service as we speak (this will be delivered over fiber in my particular case).  The time to deliver is 60 - 90 days.  Not a big deal for me, because I am switching providers and am timing this to be near the end of my other contract (I want both in place for a bit of time to allow us to do the switchover).  Given product leadtime, I can imagine that one could buy the products at the time of the order or use a pull system for inventory replenishment.


From all of this, I can say that cash is expended really close to the start of return from the end customer.  This is a nice little business while it works, the only issue really arises when it doesn't.  The service provider is rather screwed then.


seven


 

paolo.franzoi
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paolo.franzoi,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 4:31:13 PM
re: Bad News for Bonded Copper?


billy,


Since this is a 3G going to a 4G upgrade, I will need 100 Mb/s symmetric at 10-11 BER.  How many pairs of copper do you need?  You were fine at 10 Mb/s and even then there were issues.  At 100 Mb/s symmetric, EoCu is dead.


 


seven


 

billy_fold
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billy_fold,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 4:31:13 PM
re: Bad News for Bonded Copper?


I really hate to disagree with you and Yiannis and AT&T and all the other mobile operators that agree with them, but bonded copper is low latency (less than 2 milliseconds one way from device to device), low jitter (less than 1 millisecond) and very low packet loss (approaching 99.999% availability).  Plus it is highly reliable since it uses multiple pairs (it can automatically add and remove pairs hitlessly from the bonded group and still keep passing traffic).  For Yiannis and you to say that is OK to allocate a "small percentage" misses the point.  It's almost like you all are saying that bonded copper is an inferior technology so we will only allocate a small percentage of the total to it.  Bonded copper is capable of SLAs that are similar to fiber SLAs.  It is time to wake up and smell the roses.  Sorry.


-billy

paolo.franzoi
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paolo.franzoi,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 4:31:12 PM
re: Bad News for Bonded Copper?


 


You can do this at 12 kft with no repeaters?


10 - 9 is NOT fiber quality.


 


seven


 


PS - The normal issue at 10 Mb/s is that you really need 4 - 5 pairs which are not available.

billy_fold
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billy_fold,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 4:31:12 PM
re: Bad News for Bonded Copper?


Seven,


I can do about 50 Mbps symetrical using 8 copper pairs.  It would take me about 16 pairs to do 100 Mbps symetrical.  There is normally a 25 pair binder running out to the cell site so bandwidth should not be an issue.  I can get 10-9 BER pretty easily and even higher depending on some other factors.  So what were these other issues that you had at 10 Mbps symmetrical?


-billy

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