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PCCW Drops Navini

PCCW Ltd. (NYSE: PCW; Hong Kong: 0008) has dropped broadband wireless access vendor Navini Networks Inc. as a supplier of its U.K. network rollout.

In May this year PCCW’s local subsidiary, U.K. Broadband, announced plans to launch a 3.4GHz wireless broadband service in the Thames Valley area, using kit from both IPWireless Inc. and Navini. The network can potentially cover approximately 300,000 homes in west London (see PCCW Fixes UK Wireless and IPWireless Powers PCCW).

The company is now attempting to extend the service throughout the U.K., ploughing a reported $40 million into the commercial rollout of up to 60 base stations next year.

“We will be engaging in a phased rollout approach in urban areas starting in 2005,” marketing manager Hannah Williams tells Unstrung. “We have now been given funding for next year because our soft launch in the Thames Valley was successful. We are taking a prudent and balanced approach to that program.”

Despite the earlier partnership, Navini will not be included in such plans. “We were using both IPWireless and Navini Networks in the trial, but will be working with IPWireless as we progressively rollout. The technology [from IPWireless] was more in fitting with what we wanted to do,” says Williams.

IPWireless is attempting to court carriers with its high-speed time-division duplex (TDD) data system, which conforms to universal mobile telecommunications system (UMTS) standards but -- unlike standard cellular systems -- uses unpaired spectrum, sending and receiving data on one channel rather than two (see IPWireless Flies the TDD Flag and IPWireless Fattens Its Wallet for more detail on the vendor’s offering).

In contrast, Navini Networks is one of a glut of startups now talking up the nascent 802.16 market (see WiMax Gets 'Smart').

Navini is still listed as a partner in a statement on U.K. Broadband’s Website. The same blurb also notes the service provider will in the future “support the emerging WiMax standard for portable wireless broadband.”

Such a move now seems a distant venture. “The IPWireless technology we are using is based on UMTS-TDD and has the same future technology roadmap as 3G,” adds Williams. “It possesses the same qualities as the WiMax standard, ie portable, non-line-of-sight, broadband access. The difference is it is available and up and running today, whereas WiMax seems to be some time away. That is the reason for our decision.”

Navini could not be reached for comment by press time.

— Justin Springham, Senior Editor, Europe, Unstrung

wimaxfan 12/5/2012 | 12:58:50 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini Dan,

Thanks for stepping in. I would urge you to consider moderating these message boards since they are degrading into personal attacks and rampant smear campaigns designed to discredit the competition.

You can probably guess who these folks are and if you could take some action to curb this, we would appreciate it. I am a fan of your site, but not of this BS.

It really degrades your overall position as a source of great information in the wireless industry.
Astrofan 12/5/2012 | 12:58:52 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini why are airespace and aruba getting all the attention? what happened to the good old days when we all ragged on the other overly hyped companies like Vivato, Trapeze? Anyone know what's up with those companies? Does anyone own a wi-fi base station/switch or whatever they call it? How about BelAir? Is the product as good as the hype, PR etc.?
lrmobile_kanjanie 12/5/2012 | 12:58:52 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini Does it not seem strange all these firings and leavings including the CFO and people still think Aruba is going to be bought. It is more like they are about to implode with a big bang
wlanrunner 12/5/2012 | 12:58:55 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini Just want to point out that this is not the first time such behaviour (multiple personalities of asc) has been observed. I am certain that others are also guilty - but not as blatant and with as much vitriol towards their competitors.

http://www.unstrung.com/boards...
http://www.unstrung.com/docume...
joset01 12/5/2012 | 12:58:56 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini Hi

We have a fairly open policy with these message boards, but I'd appreciate it if people laid off the personal name calling. It's petty and it really doesn't achieve anything.

We've deleted some of the messages in this thread because of it. I'd really rather not kill the entire thread.

Thanks

Dan Jones
Site Editor
Unstrung
h8_wifi 12/5/2012 | 12:59:02 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini Heard that about Doug Droese too. Also noticed some time ago that John Tavs left Airespace. I think he was VP of software or somesuch.

Guess what? Companies fire people, and people quit. Frankly, seeing a company fire people is encouraging to me, as I've seen lots of startups sink over their own dead weight. It doesn't worry me. What worries me is seeing companies go through 5 rounds of VC funding with no sizable customer list, then lay off the entire engineering team, etc. Neither Aruba nor Airespace is showing signs of being in pain right now, from what I can tell. I personally believe Airespace is being bought by Alcatel, and I believe Cisco or Juniper is trying to buy Aruba.
freetoair 12/5/2012 | 12:59:03 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini Interesting how the topic of "PCCW Drops Navini" turning into a series of Aruba / Airespace Rants.

Monitoring this banter for the past few days I conclude:

1) "h8_wifi" morphed into "WF_TOP_GUY" and is the same poster

2) both companies are struggling to some extend although from this and other indicators - Aruba much more so.

3) seems that there are some insiders here that are doing BOTH companies a dis-service with the banter - so no one is winning this PR campaign

Frankly I find the enterprise .11 switch market kinda ho-hum & boring, as I suspect most customers do.

Perhaps some folks hoped it was the "next really big thing" and are a little dissapointed/frustrated when faced with reality?
lrmobile_wirelessgeek 12/5/2012 | 12:59:06 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini Did Mr. Droese leave Airespace, and why?
lrmobile_wirelessgeek 12/5/2012 | 12:59:11 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini
Word on the street is that the real mastermind behind Airespace marketing has left the company. Word has it that Doug Droese, Marketing Manager has walked out of Airespace. He was put there by the investors to watch over the VP of Marketing and gave up on the guy. Not a very good sign of confidence from a person who is also an investor in the company.

Want more? Then keep rambling on...
WF_TOP_GUY 12/5/2012 | 12:59:12 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini Keith Hoskinson fired too and he was a Lebeau boy!!! WOW that is the CFO, Walt Foss and now there VP of WW Channels all gone within a 2 month window.

Yes folks this is a solid company!!!

Who is next on the chopping block?

The spiral downward continues!!!!
lrmobile_yea_right 12/5/2012 | 12:59:13 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini You lay it on a bit too thick.

"They wouldn't let any technical issue result in
any pain for the customer. These guys would jump
on a grenade first."

and

"It is the biggest thing I have seen to a big
friggin love fest with everyone that gets involved."

Next time cut out the hyperbole and it *might*
be believable. This is just too much though. If
you are really a reseller (of anything) you would
know that nothing "is rock solid", Aruba gear
included.

lrmobile_wirelessgeek 12/5/2012 | 12:59:35 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini For a disgruntled customer from the South you have sooooo much Silicon Valley information that you so willingly share with us. Hmmm.....I wonder


2 larger VC have Dave Bulter's resume on file and have him interviewing at 3 specific startups.......none of them wireless by the way!!!


lrmobile_wirelessgeek 12/5/2012 | 12:59:35 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini Hopefully, this guy will shut up and let some useful information flow. Do we have a concensus?
wimaxfan 12/5/2012 | 12:59:36 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini WF_TOP_GUY,

If you really are a southerner and a networking person, how do you know that Dave Butler's resume is on a VC's desk? Are there really that many VCs in the south or is Butler considering moving South?

Whatever - we don't give a damn. Give us all a break and stop this smear campaign, whoever you are.

Unstrung message boards are mostly useful and the last time I remember seeing this kind of BS on the message boards was when the so called mobile router companies were fighting each other on these message boards a couple years ago.

Please stop this and don't ruin the experience for the rest of us.

Thanks.
WF_TOP_GUY 12/5/2012 | 12:59:36 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini I will tell you what Aruba did to me......I am a former customer out of the southern US. Aruba lied to me and messed up my network. Aruba almost cost me my job because I recommend them. I told Aruba before I through them out I would give them as much bad press as I could. I now have no wireless solution and I am having a hard time proving to my upper management that there is a good wireless solution on the market. Airespace, Chantry, Meru and the rest of them are trying to win my business, but Aruba put such a bad taste in the mouth's of my bosses they really don't want to speak to any of them. They actually want to put Cisco in. This would make my job a living hell. NOW YOU KNOW WHY I HATE ARUBA SO MUCH!!!
lrmobile_wirelessgeek 12/5/2012 | 12:59:37 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini The VP of Marketing must be feeling some heat over there at Airespace. I see no other reason someone would want to launch such a nasty smear campaign against a competitor on a message board !!!

There are many ways to do succesful Marketing and this is one of the bad ones.


h8_wifi 12/5/2012 | 12:59:37 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini Never heard of Mike Kirby, but sales people come and go all the time. Wouldn't concern me. But since you're nitpicking (last post), exactly which VP of hardware left? Kent Headrick is still there.. call the switchboard and see for yourself (I just did.)

Alan, is posting on Unstrung really part of your marketing plan? You ought to find something with a broader audience. This place is just full of us wireless geeks, no paying customers here.
h8_wifi 12/5/2012 | 12:59:37 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini Wow, so what did Aruba do to you that makes you care so much? Your name isn't Alan Cohen, is it? Hmmmm....

I read their website. Looks to me like they said "Top 100 Finalist", which is exactly what the Red Herring website refers to them as. In fact, the logo they used clearly states "finalist". Not sure what you're getting so excited over.
WF_TOP_GUY 12/5/2012 | 12:59:40 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini 2 larger VC have Dave Bulter's resume on file and have him interviewing at 3 specific startups.......none of them wireless by the way!!! Looks like Mike Kirby is getting the VP of Sales role!!!
So basically in the last 9 monthes Aruba has lost a founder, VP of Hardware, VP of Software, their CFO and a regional manager who was also an investor.........and now maybe the VP of WW Sales........hmmmmmmmmmmm. The spin downward is getting faster and faster!!!!!
WF_TOP_GUY 12/5/2012 | 12:59:40 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini On the Aruba website the state they made the Red Herring top 100...THEY LIE AGAIN!! They were a finalist with 250 other companies!!! They did not make the TOP 100!!!

Aruba is stretching for anything good right now.....any branch on the way down!!!
wireless_guru 12/5/2012 | 1:00:14 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini freetoair is correct, it is more noise to confuse and distract. Posturing is a better way to describe it.

The better question is why is it still a trial and not a full deployment. Answer, they are not getting what they need to meet the business case. There are now rumors another vendor has been seen installed on their sites and in the trial now. Why would they bring another vendor in if they are sold on IPW????
freetoair 12/5/2012 | 1:00:22 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini Does not "put an end to the rumors" for me...

Just a new rehash of the same old PR.
I personally (no offense) really find it meaningless.

UK Broadband (PCCW) supposedly had picked IPWireless. UTStarcom is OEMing IPW.
So what is new here?
What does this mean?

That UTstarcom somehow ligitimizes this? OK
Or that there is a "closer" relationship between the Asian based (leadership) of PCCW & UTstarcom? Probably.

But this Thames Valley thing has been going on for what seems like forever???

- few subscribers
- continued reports of "quality/performance" problems
- periodic PCCW updates that confuse everyone most recently the whole "WiMAX" blather

Would be nice if there were some PR that said:
----------------------------------------------
- there is a Contract with commited $$'s (like most real contracts)
- a firm rollout / launch plan
- details of the subscriber uptake / testimonials, etc.

Such information would go a long way to ending the rumors for me. This other noise does nothing for me.
lrmobile_justin 12/5/2012 | 1:00:26 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini Wonder if this will put an end to the rumors....? ;-)

http://www.unstrung.com/docume...

Unstrung Justin
patachia 12/5/2012 | 1:00:27 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini Could you tell us what kind of issues do they have with throughput and latency considering a loaded environment? What is this latency, how have they masured and what is the recommended/normal latency for different applications(real time gaming, voice, http..)
Are you saying that Navini performances are bellow the ones demonstrated by IPW solution?

Maybe the WiMAX/pre-WiMAX WMAN solutions will be used for backhauling the IPW NodeB.... and suposing that they have enough 3.5GHz spectrum this is quite possible.
wireless_guru 12/5/2012 | 1:00:31 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini IPW has always had an issue with thoughput and latency with a populated, deployed network. Even with one modem them latency is bad. Throughput for multiple units running at the same time is nothing to be proud of either. See no reason for them to stick with IPW and to be pulled just as Navini was.
freetoair 12/5/2012 | 1:01:17 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini Justin,

No problem.

One other point I feel worth mentioning:
Given PCCW's statements regarding WiMAX (both in PR statements and on thier website) - what does this mean for IPW /TDD?

"The UK Broadband wireless broadband service is provided using the very latest technology from world leading companies. Our current service is uses equipment from IPWireless and Navini. In the future we'll support the emerging "WiMax" standard for portable wireless broadband. "

1) Given IPWireless is using very different technology than WiMAX and via the TDD Coalition they are positioning themselves clearly in "another" camp.

Is the implication that IPW is going to provide a WiMAX variant in the future? Perhaps even a dual-mode BTS?

OR

2) Noting the PCCW statement says "portable (not mobile)" which, although certified WiMAX is still a ways away, when considering to deploy infrastructure equipment, portable WiMAX is in theory not that far out. So if they are serious about WiMAX (pre-WiMAX certified with a software upgrade path or fully certified) would they be aggressively deploying TDD technology / vendor equipment that is at least psudeo-proprietary? Or would they be slow rolling this build out and working on a plan for a WiMAX std's based network?

OR

Given that IPW has "reasonably baked, portable broadband now" does this say that the Market is Gǣsoft / not thereGǥ and slow rolling will provide time to clarify the Market picture both for WiMAX, IPW TDD and/or any other solution?

What is the real message here?
lrmobile_justin 12/5/2012 | 1:01:19 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini Good point and thanks. I've amended.

As for subscriber/latency rates etc, UK Broadband are declining to reveal such info at present.

Unstrung Justin
freetoair 12/5/2012 | 1:01:20 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini
Perhaps the way the sentence is written could be mis-interpreted: "Reports suggest approximately 300,000 homes have to date subscribed to the residential service in west London...".

The report from PCCW is that:
"The service provides instant, high-speed Internet access initially covering approximately 300,000 homes."

Covering, meaning that the service area is to ~300,000 subs, but this does not mean 100% of these are subscribers to the service. What is the real number of subscribers, how happy are they with the service, what data rates / throughput are they receiving, what is the service level, latency, etc.
freetoair 12/5/2012 | 1:01:20 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini Justin,

Just listening to the gossip trail.

BTW --
"Reports suggest approximately 300,000 homes have to date subscribed to the residential service in west London..."

What report(s) are these?
How valid is this number, again from the gossip trail, this seems a gross exaggeration.
lrmobile_justin 12/5/2012 | 1:01:23 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini IPWireless says it's "100% involved" in the rollout. UK Broadband certainly didn't give any hint of a swapout.

Maybe you know something I don't?

Unstrung Justin
freetoair 12/5/2012 | 1:01:30 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini Dropping Navini, I thought, was old news.

And in fact, I thought, that IPWireless was
already dropped.

When I first read the headline I did a double take as I was sure it must have referred to IPW?
wireless_guru 12/5/2012 | 1:01:31 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini Look for another vendoro to take the place of IP Wireless real soon.
boracho 12/5/2012 | 3:14:24 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini Does anyone have any feedback on power requirement of OFDM based wireless systems? I have heared that the power backoff and APR in OFDM systems can increase the cost of RF components e.g. amplifiers, etc. considerably. I guess if this is true then using a lower grade RF components with OFDM systems will reduce performance e.g bandwidth, reach, etc.

Any feedback from actual in field system deployment compared to lab experiments will be of great value.
convert 12/5/2012 | 3:14:28 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini UMTS board should sue IPWIRELESS for misleading the industry.
How can IPWIRELESS claim that their technology is complying to 3GPP UMTS standards when their products are working in odd spectrums like 2053 MHz (Woosh), 3.4 GHz (PCCW) and now in the 800 MHz and 450 MHz.

techgnochhi 12/5/2012 | 3:14:37 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini This seems to fit into the pattern of all their other announcements. Just look what they are doing in the newly announced 450MHz product. As far from UMTS standards as Flarion or any other proprietary airlink technology. And this rumored deal in Czech in some strange 800 band adds one more "non-standards-based" notch to their belt.
lrmobile_ravikumar 12/5/2012 | 3:18:50 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini UTSTARCOM and IPWIRESS are claiming that their radio equipment are complying to 3GPP UMTS standards but they can only provide us with only two references.

i) UK Broadband: which has a system running on 3.5 ghz

ii) WOOSH: which has a system running on odd spectrum of 2050 mhz (UTSTARCOM said to us that WOOSH network operates on 3G spectrum, this is unbelievable!!!!!)

They donGt have any network running on 3G spectrums.

To me, the only advantage that UTSTARCOM/IPWIRELESS has is 3GPP standard compliant but I think this is another misleading information from these two vendors.

My conclusion: TD-CDMA is another proprietary technology, just like iBurst or Navini. But iBurst and Navini can provide much better spectrum efficiency, latency and radio coverage. And I think their voice capacity is higher than TD-CDMA.
convert 12/5/2012 | 3:18:57 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini Woosh paid next to nothing for the odd spectrum (2050 mhz) that they are using for their wireless broadband network so they can afford to buy many more base stations; but it would be wiser for them to buy 802.11 Access Point instead of investing into IPWIRELESS gears.
802.11 Access Point works much better than IPWIRELESS base station for a small fraction of the cost.

IPWIRELESS is the only company on this planet manufacture 2050 mhz products for WOOSH. (It beats me when IPWIRELESS claims that their gears are complied with 3GPP UMTS standards when they are selling products working in the odd 2050 mhz spectrum.

WOOSH needs IPWIRELESS and vice versa. They need to support each other until they go bankrupt in few months time.
convert 12/5/2012 | 3:18:57 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini Woosh paid next to nothing for the odd spectrum (2050 mhz) that they are using for their wireless broadband network so they can afford to buy many more base stations; but it would be wiser for them to buy 802.11 Access Point instead of investing into IPWIRELESS gears.
802.11 Access Point works much better than IPWIRELESS base station for a small fraction of the cost.

IPWIRELESS is the only company on this planet manufacture 2050 mhz products for WOOSH. (It beats me when IPWIRELESS claims that their gears are complied with 3GPP UMTS standards when they are selling products working in the odd 2050 mhz spectrum.

WOOSH needs IPWIRELESS and vice versa. They need to support each other until they go bankrupt in few months time.
lrmobile_justin 12/5/2012 | 3:19:01 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini Interesting announcement in light of recent message board postings:

http://www.unstrung.com/docume...

Unstrung Justin
lrmobile_ravikumar 12/5/2012 | 3:19:07 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini Dear Toshi,
Please send the test report to [email protected]
Someone mentioned earlier the Whoosh network can provide only few voice users per sector. Do you have any voice capacity data on IP WIRELESS network?
With the latency of 250-600 ms I dont know how they can provide good voice quality.

Thanks very much in advance.
RK
a_cole 12/5/2012 | 3:19:14 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini Would be interested in that test report: [email protected]
lrmobile_ravikumar 12/5/2012 | 3:19:25 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini Dear Mr. Toshi,
I assume that you have hands on experience with IP Wireless TD-CDMA equipment.
Please share with me the experience that you have with latency, spectrum efficiency, uplink throughput and downlink data throughput.
Currently we are evaluating IP Wireless and other wireless broadband technologies and just want to make sure that we select the right one.

UTSTARCOM who is IP WIRELESS reseller has presented to us some performance index but we find it's difficult to believe them. Especially when we hear many complaints about IP Wireless products.


Thank you in advance.
RK
lrmobile_Toshi 12/5/2012 | 3:19:26 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini TD-CDMA is works in small office or in small area like WI-FI.
It does not work in outdoor because interferene from many sites and because of interference between uplink timeslots and downlink timeslots.
People in Japan like FLARION, IBURST and NAVINI better for wireless braodband. IPWIRELESS people lies too much.
convert 12/5/2012 | 3:19:34 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini Who cares what Softbank said, the bottom line is they kicked IPWIRELESS out and going for WCDMA.
The same for T-Mobile, they tested out IPWIRELESS gears and at the end they selected Flarion.

Check out the below link for complaints from Sentech customers on IPWIRELESS technology.

http://blogspot.mg.co.za/?q=no...

Simply put TD-CDMA doesnt work !!!!
This is the reason why none of the telecom vendors is developing the technology.
convert 12/5/2012 | 3:19:34 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini Who cares what Softbank said, the bottom line is they kicked IPWIRELESS out and going for WCDMA.
The same for T-Mobile, they tested out IPWIRELESS gears and at the end they selected Flarion.

Check out the below link for complaints from Sentech customers on IPWIRELESS technology.

http://blogspot.mg.co.za/?q=no...

Simply put TD-CDMA doesnt work !!!!
This is the reason why none of the telecom vendors is developing the technology.

freetoair 12/5/2012 | 3:20:04 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini What did Softbank say? Missed that one, is there a link?

Have not heard specific numbers as you quote on IPW/Whoosh, but have heard generally the same comments (poor uplink datarates, very low voice capacity), as well as high latency, low & highly flucuating uplink datarates. And not just at Whoosh also see Airdata (Germany), Sentech (S. Africa). Malaysia was to be AtlasOne in conjunction with Thales (France) as partner. Not sure what happened to that one but do not think it went ahead for whatever reason. Navini is there, as is Soma.

Would also note at the same time these comments/complaints would appear to be the same for other vendors as well, again not hearing such specific numbers though.
convert 12/5/2012 | 3:20:06 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini What Softbank said about uplink data rate and voice performance of IPWIRELESS TD-CDMA equipement is correct.
Checked with the guys at Woosh and they said the same thing, they can only get uplink data rate of 50 kbps if they are lucky. They could only get 10kbps when they use 5mhz carrier.
For voice they can only get few users per sector and IPWIRELESS told them that they could get more than 20 users....this is shocking....
IPWIRELESS is known for lying they said.
Woosh will go bankrupt soon with this kind of service.
Does anyone know what happened to that operator in Malaysia who selected IPWIRELESS few years back? Have not heard from it lately.
lrmobile_Toshi 12/5/2012 | 3:21:27 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini Nextel should think about it carefuly.
TD-CDMA is no good, dont work with voice and uplink data is no good.
Softbank in Japan test ipwireless TD-CDMA equipment but it does not work good. Softbank will use WCDMA.
fkuznik 12/5/2012 | 3:21:38 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini Found this in a report on FCC filings. Presumably they are talking about the 2.5 GHz spectrum that Nextel-Sprint own. If you link this with Nortels CEOs key-note at CTIA, things seem to being forward fast now for IPWireless...

Nextel Bullish on TD-CDMA

In separate studies, Nextel said it evaluated TD-CDMA technology, which it said is capable of operating on 5MHz, 10MHz, or 20MHz carriers in a TDD mode. An FDD mode has recently been developed, too.

"TD-CDMA FDD could support much higher bandwidth to the end user devices or increase system capacity significantly -- attributes that a carrier could combine to offer never-before-seen levels of service," said Nextel.
freetoair 12/5/2012 | 3:22:07 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini As if anyone cares.
Since PCCW is not buying anything anytime soon anyway. Navini knows the game very well having run a gazillion trials all over the world.
They are lucky not to be sucked down with this one further and saving the little funds they have.
convert 12/5/2012 | 3:22:08 AM
re: PCCW Drops Navini Since PCCW is one of the investors of IPWIRELESS so they have no choice but to promote IPWIRELESS technology.

Navini walked into a trap setup by PCCW and IPWIRELESS.
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