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gardner 12/4/2012 | 7:50:45 PM
re: Wall Street Aghast at Tragedy Your idealistic rhetoric is the only juvenile thing here...


Because you say so? You act as if merely asserting something makes it true. Let's look more carefully at what you say and judge your words by the standards we would judge the terrorist. Look at the hatred and evil in your words and tell me how they differ from those of Bin Laden and his ilk? You and those like you are more like him than you can admit and that is the denial that you exhibit.

Look: Nature, the world itself is not a nice place...there is competition all over the world. This is just one unmistakable aspect of it.

Why is it that people reject civilization and the compassion taught by all the major world religions just when they need it the most? When I read your words I see Bin Laden's words, with all the same verbs and adjectives but the subjects and objects are reversed. The symmetry is striking to anyone who dares to take off the blinders of hatred.
77thlightguy 12/4/2012 | 7:50:45 PM
re: Wall Street Aghast at Tragedy I, like many other here, have beed glued to the TV. There is, thank goodness, journalistic freedom here. The same cannot be said for many places. Scott, I am sorry, but you clearly do not agree with ownstock, and are using your power to censor his strong point of view. That is wrong. Now you become one with the haters.

gardner 12/4/2012 | 7:50:44 PM
re: Wall Street Aghast at Tragedy I, too, am concerned by the actions and possible outcome(s) of whatever response the US makes to these atrocities.

I think all thinking people around the world are concerned. I too have been shocked at how unstatesmanly our American leaders and opinion makers have been about this. So much talk of vengeance. Exactly the same motivator for the hijackers that did so much evil. How does it escape our notice that vengeance will only feed the same hateful emotions that motivated the hijackers in the first place? Vengeance is like a virus. It spreads itself by infecting the minds of humans and spreads fastest when the injured take on the characteristics of those that injured them. Bin Laden and those Americans who would visit death on the Afghan people for the sins of their leaders worship the same god: vengeance. How is it that people do not see that when those hijackers flew a plane into the WTC they were punishing the American people for the perceived sins of their leaders? Should we respond in the popular way we would be doing the exact same thing. And it would not come close to stopping terrorism. It would fuel it. Why is that so hard for people to see?
ZAPPED 12/4/2012 | 7:50:44 PM
re: Wall Street Aghast at Tragedy Should murderers and animals who slaughter innocent people be allowed to get away with this?
The EVIL masterminds that do nothing but run like roaches when you turn the light on when the heat is on, but wouldn't hesitate to use their own innocent people as human shields to save their butts. Talk about EVIL , maybe the devil himself or at least a madman (wasn't Hitler a madman Yet most of Germany followed him, Why?) Easily lead? Easily Brainwashed? Golly I just need a cause to follow because I can't think for myself.

Now in talking about The United States of America, what is this perceived sins of their leaders? And why do the ones who say it go off and hide?
And why is there a mention of hatred of the USA?

Maybe someone could explain that to me. Not a 9 paragraph disertation, say in 10 words or less. In other words don't beat around the bush, to the point!
yikes_stripes 12/4/2012 | 7:50:43 PM
re: Wall Street Aghast at Tragedy http://commons.somewhere.com/r...

This article and the authors website offer a well reasoned perspective and lots of thought provoking info.
gardner 12/4/2012 | 7:50:43 PM
re: Wall Street Aghast at Tragedy Should murderers and animals who slaughter innocent people be allowed to get away with this?

No. But there is a great deal of difference between blindly striking back (in the manner of a terrorist) and dealing with the problem in a rational and well thought out manner. It does not help for you to try to frame the issue in black and white: either you accept indiscriminate slaughter in retaliation or you are "letting them get away with it". Remember it doesn't hurt Bin Laden if we kill lots of innocent Afghan civilians. It only builds more hatred of the US that he will shape to his needs as he already does. So in actual fact it will help him. Do you want to help him?


The EVIL masterminds that do nothing but run like roaches when you turn the light on when the heat is on, but wouldn't hesitate to use their own innocent people as human shields to save their butts.

Yes, the people who planned this are evil. That is not a license to do more evil in return.


Talk about EVIL , maybe the devil himself or at least a madman (wasn't Hitler a madman Yet most of Germany followed him, Why?) Easily lead? Easily Brainwashed? Golly I just need a cause to follow because I can't think for myself.

Yes, unfortunately some people are easily led. We've seen it happen alot in this world. I just don't want to see it happen here. Americans can be just as scary as anyone else when they nurse a grudge and act out of pain and injured pride.

And why is there a mention of hatred of the USA?

Primarily because someone felt enough hatred to cause the death of 5000+ people. Isn't it obvious that someone hates the US?

Maybe someone could explain that to me. Not a 9 paragraph disertation, say in 10 words or less. In other words don't beat around the bush, to the point!

Perhaps what you are really asking is "Why do they hate the US?" instead of "Why is there a mention of hatred of the US?". Clearly there is hatred. "Why?" is the question. There isn't a simple answer unfortunately and I fear that if you will only accept a simple answer you will never get one that satisfies you. In the interests of an attempt let me just tick off a few possibilities:
(a) a perceived (and I think real) favoritism toward Israel in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict (b) the suffering of the Iraqi people under the embargo that doesn't seem to be hurting Saddam but is still tenaciously pursued by US leaders. (c)changes in traditional ways of life brought about by western culture spreading to places it has never been before. (I might add that fear of modern values is the same thing that motivates our homegrown fundamentalists who sometimes blow up abortion clinics so let's not get on our high horse about resistance to modernism).

Does that help?
LightWatchman 12/4/2012 | 7:50:43 PM
re: Wall Street Aghast at Tragedy The United Nations estimates that Afghanistan produces about 50 percent of the world's heroin supply!!!!!!

The criminalized economy

According to US Government estimates, Afghanistan supplanted Burma as the world's largest producer of opium in 1999. Although the production and consumption of intoxicants is forbidden in Islam, Taliban leaders allow the opium trade and rationalize it by noting that it is intended for export and consumption by kafirs (nonbelievers) in the West. The Taliban controls 97 percent of the territory that produces illicit opium in Afghanistan. It taxes opium dealers at a rate of up to 20 percent, earning at least $20 million per year in taxes. The United Nations estimates that Afghanistan produces about 50 percent of the world's heroin supply, including 80 percent of the heroin supplied to Europe. Heroin addiction is rising rapidly among Afghanistan's neighbors: Iran is believed to have 3 million heroin addicts; Pakistan, which had virtually no heroin addicts in 1979, had an estimated 5 million in 1999.

Source
http://www.stratmag.com/issueM...

brahmos 12/4/2012 | 7:50:42 PM
re: Wall Street Aghast at Tragedy er, reports say US-Pak is negotiating a
economic and military bailout package
in exchange for co-operation. Pak was
3rd largest sink for US aid until 1990
(after israel and egypt) which enabled them
to maintain a very active proxy war through
terrorists in India. in 1990s the nuclear
umbrella gave them same leeway.

This is sure move to take Indo-US relations
rapidly downhill unless the "deal" also involves
Pak shutting down its training camps for
terrorists in Kashmir and locking up its 15 or
so major fundamentalist orgs (all are
virulently anti-US, anti-israel and anti-India).

While US and Israel are far away and have much
greater freedom of action, India is joined at
the hip and is everyone's favourite external
target in that region.

77thlightguy 12/4/2012 | 7:50:42 PM
re: Wall Street Aghast at Tragedy I'd like to try to raise an issue that I would appreciate hearing opinions on. I got involved in the Internet for a number of reasons, the base of which was to make money and feed my family. But one of the higher goals, the one that really caught my imagination was the idea of worldwide communication.

Maybe I reveal a certain innocence here, but it seems to me that one of the core problems with the world is not enough communication. I don't mean calling someone you know on the phone, or sending a friend a letter, or email. I mean talking to people you do not know, and, especially, to make my point, people you do not like...maybe even hate.

The internet, and especially message sites like this, are the only place I can think of where this kind of communication can happen.

I know this is a complicated topic. What I am saddened by though, is what I see as the loss of that ideal of worldwide communication.

I am very distrubed by two things that have happened on this site. One poster, who does not like the conservative point of view, suggested removing a link to the Fox channel. Steve removed another poster who he did not agree with. Both had well reasoned justification for what they did or proposed.

The net result is less communication, not more. Somehow, we need to work on removing barriers to communciation, not errect more. Their reasons are all justified, and seem so right, we want to agree. But we have to rise above and see what is happening, and resist it, because it is a trap.

Otherwise, it seems to me we get to feel good about ourselves talking to others of like minds, manners, etiquite (sp?), culture, religion, etc...to what end? To pump up our own feelings of correctness? Our thoughts and reasoning are better than "theirs"? I am so polite, and they are so rude...it's all an excuse not to listen.

That, in my opinion, is how we got into this mess. Here is a chance for us photonic professionals to contribute to a better world.

And we are blowing it.
rtfm 12/4/2012 | 7:50:42 PM
re: Wall Street Aghast at Tragedy ZAPPED,

I think 2 posters have given information on how/why the US is disliked TO THE POINT THEY WILL DIE FOR THEIR "CAUSE."

"Gardner" gives a little info, as does "Shaken but also stirred." The latter is a long article, but raises interesting points.

Other than points already raised, Indian friends tell me how in the 60s and 70s, they strongly resented the US supporting dictatorships in Pakistan. During the 71 war with Pakistan, the US actually encouraged China to attack India, and the US sent in nuclear destroyers into the Bay of Bengal to intimidate India. History showed that India was not an agressor in that war, but rather helped Bangaldesh gain its independance.

The good news is that most of the Indians don't remember these acts, and view the US much more positively (and vice versa).

rtfm
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