re: Wall Street Aghast at TragedyThe new Jewish Crusader campaign is led by the biggest crusader Bush under the banner of the cross," [Bin Laden] said,
Jewish Crusade? That's pretty rich. Sounds like we have a very confused terrorist on our hands. ;-)
Sorry, them's the facts. BTW, I am neither anti-Zionist nor anti-Semetic, so get off that cheap label-'em horse.
Have I called you any names yet?
Now you know why Bush said what he said: he had to bait 'em out into the open. Rather than being stupid as you thought, I think it was very smart. Texas frat-boy outsmarts him.
I really doubt that. I live in Texas. Bush was my governor before he was my president. I'm pretty confident it was not a clever ruse to smoke out a madman. And I don't know how much use it is to get a madman to spout more madness anyway. I don't think anyone on this side of the world questions Bin Laden's madness. And in the madrassas of the Pushtun country from Afghanistan to Northern Pakistan I don't think the absurdity of a "jewish crusader" will have much impact. In fact, I suspect it will play well into the set of religious prejudices commonly taught in radical madrassas. So what's the point if this is such a smart ploy on Bush's part?
Of course you must know that Matthew 5 refers to the Christian individual, and not the state... I would try my best to turn the other cheek if someone slapped ME in the face, but it is just as biblical for me to take up arms and to take lives to defend my family and/or country; I should forgive sins perpetrated against me... Exodus 22:1-3 "If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed;" ^I put this in, since you like scripture so...
With your logic, a country that espoused Christianity could not defend itself... HMMMM. Not very logical, or biblical...
Oh, the plank-eye deal... I'm impressed! I would have figured you may have used "Judge not..." or "may he among you without sin cast the first stone"
I will be the first to admit that I am not perfect, nor am I always correct in what I say, perhaps you need to get to know me before you release your virdict, my young friend, son of Ishmael... The only statements that were (or at least meant to be) disparaging were toward the MILITANT Islamic Fundy's- the croud that killed 5000+ of MY American brothers and sisters, as well as brothers and sisters of yours, since there were people from 80 countries that perished... I guess you don't mourn for them... perhaps you're mourning for the pilots that were steering those planes in the last moments...
I have no glory... I am ashamed that I am so pitiful that I couldn't meet God's demands. But God still loved me enough to send his Son to die for me... BTW, He loves you that much, too.
Do I have the light of life? You bet. His name is the Holy Spirit. Am I better than the lost because of it? Nope. Do I still goof up? Sure; and when I do, the Holy Spirit condemns me on account of it. Would I give it up? NO WAY.
Why did I choose that particular passage as my screen name? BECAUSE THIS IS LIGHT READING - Get it? Kinda funny, huh?
Have Christians done beastly things? Yup, How 'bout them crusades? or the Inquisition? Horrible acts, that are not justified... But, your point is... It seemed as if you were counter-condemning christianity, because you felt I equated Islam with WTC? Get real, and then read my posts again...
'May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.'
re: Wall Street Aghast at TragedyFirst of all the ObL text said 'Christian-Jewish Crusade'... not 'Jewish Crusade' as was previously posted. The full text (which is actually pretty short) is here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/... Whether giving them the impression of a holy war by using the 'crusade' metaphor was deliberate or a Bushism, we now have a call to arms from ObL.
Big Broter comes, some background:
Our media access will be limited:
http://www.msnbc.com/news/6331... We will be kept in the dark, about movements, fine, information that would compromise our troops or our allies' troops should under no situation be leaked... but the problem is that criticism is now considered unpatriotic!
Here's a link about the new anti-terrorism proposals:
Is anyone here willing to support the fact that censorship is not a violation of our constitution? Anyone? Yelling 'Fire' in a crowded theater maybe, but this is nowhere near that scenario... yelling 'Crusade' in a crowded mosque maybe.
We already know that the current administration likes to work in secrecy (GAO's problems with Cheney come to mind) but is an interview of the leader of our opponent something that can compromise our national security? I mean I've had to deal with the freedom of expression of the KKK... from radio to talk shows and so on... news about their adopt-a-highway program... so why not play the interview of this supposed enemy of the american way? We've interviewed murderers and published their books and interviews before.
I've heard many people here calling for an understanding of 'why' so that we can stem the disease of hatred at the root cause. We've had many suggestions of explanations from 'Fundamentalism' to 'Retribution for past transgressions'. But I guess we're not willing to hear it directly.
I am so ashamed, I guess the terrorists really have won the war against freedom. Patrick Leahy suggested:
"Maybe the Senate wants to just go ahead and adopt new abilities to wiretap our citizens. Maybe they want to adopt new abilities to go into people's computers. Maybe that will make us feel safer. Maybe. And maybe what the terrorists have done made us a little bit less safe. Maybe they have increased Big Brother in this country.
If that is what the Senate wants, we can vote for it. But do we really show respect to the American people by slapping something together, something that nobody on the floor can explain, and say we are changing the duties of the Attorney General, the Director of the CIA, the U.S. attorneys, we are going to change your rights as Americans, your rights to privacy? We are going to do it with no hearings, no debate. We are going to do it with numbers on a page that nobody can understand. "
This probably just goes to prove what some of these haters of 'American values of freedom and democracy' have been saying... uh... whatever that may be.
re: Wall Street Aghast at TragedyThe US should make an example of those that would try to hurt us by making their lives as difficult to live as possible.
The US should make an example of those who support us by protecting their freedom of speech, freedom to worship God as they choose, and freedom to choose their own government. We should give them lots of money to spend on American productsGÇöplumbing, refrigeration, and especially optical networking gear, right? :-)
We know that they can put two and two together. We need to demonstrate that the consequences of the one path lead to commandos kicking down your door and wailing at your familyGÇÖs graves, while the other leads to the rewards of self-determination and economic prosperity.
The common citizen of central Asia hasnGÇÖt forgotten art and music, nor that itGÇÖs nice to be Sunni without the ShiGÇÖites murdering you and vice versa. They remember that itGÇÖs better to sleep at home with the family than it is to try and sleep in a cave while the artillery comes down. We just need to remind them a little.
re: Wall Street Aghast at TragedyWell, you and Earth are so ready to label everyone in the government as stupid. Now and then. Always. I do not see it that way. For example, the British opened Palestine to a few refugee Jews because they were being slaughtered in Germany. Nobody else did anything, especially not the US. If you remember history, many countries turned them away. The British public did not want them at home...thus Palestine (one of the colonies, eh what) got the prize. At least a few were saved from the ovens.
In return the Palestinians and most of the rest of "Arabia" supported Hitler during the war. So in return for that bit of understanding and loyalty, the British gave Palestine to the Jews after the war. They knew exactly what they were doing. Making a difficult choice between two bads. Real world constraints.
20-20 hindsight is an easy potshot. That's why things stay as bad as they do. Not because of stupidity.
re: Wall Street Aghast at TragedyIt has been good to read your posts on this board debating the issues that arose from the terror attacks. Keep up the good work. Have any of you considered trying to contact and maybe appear on CNN, Fox, etc.? It would be beneficial to have some alternate views expressed. It seems 90% of the pundits discuss revenge and retaliation, but very little about some of the causes of the ripe atmosphere for recruiting terrorists. Anyone that even suggests that the hands of our country are anything but squeaky clean in our dealings with our countries is quickly shouted down or ignored.
The US and the "world coalition" have a real chance to change the world if they address some foreign policy issues after they stabilize the terrorism situation. Failure to do this will result in more severe terrorist attacks, I fear. I am also concerned about losing the civil liberties we enjoy in the name of national security (especially when it is shrouded in mystery). Does the talk of forcibly replacing foreign governments with new ones more to our liking bother anyone else, or am I the crazy one?
re: Wall Street Aghast at TragedyOf course you must know that Matthew 5 refers to the Christian individual, and not the state...
I'm sorry but this is not a valid distinction. All decisions are made by individuals, even those made under color of authority. People cannot evade responsibility by saying it was the state acting and not themselves.
Exodus 22:1-3 "If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed;"
That was the old law. Jesus saw that excuse coming when he specifically mentioned the law of the talion in his preface to his comments on returning evil.
With your logic, a country that espoused Christianity could not defend itself... HMMMM. Not very logical, or biblical...
Well, thanks, but I just can't, in good conscience take credit for that logic. I'm afraid I have to admit that that is Jesus' logic not mine. ;-)
I will be the first to admit that I am not perfect, nor am I always correct in what I say, perhaps you need to get to know me before you release your virdict, my young friend, son of Ishmael...
Perhaps you need to get to know me better if you think I am a son of Ishmael. How many Arabs do you know named Gardner? ;-) And "my young friend"? Again, you flatter me. First you attribute Jesus' logic to me and then you assume I'm a young fellow. Thanks. ;-)
But, your point is... It seemed as if you were counter-condemning christianity, because you felt I equated Islam with WTC? Get real, and then read my posts again...
I chided you. Perhaps you shouldn't equate yourself to all of Christianity. This smacks of Bin Laden's claim that an attack against him is an attack against all of Islam. Megalomania seems to transcend national boundaries. . .
re: Wall Street Aghast at TragedyWell, you and Earth are so ready to label everyone in the government as stupid.
Nope. But I am unwilling to change the definition stupid just because the guy is "in authority". I don't see why anyone's foibles should be overlooked just because they are president. I know that is pretty unPC these days but oh well. . .
20-20 hindsight is an easy potshot. That's why things stay as bad as they do. Not because of stupidity.
Never underestimate the role of stupidity in human history. ;-)
re: Wall Street Aghast at Tragedy..."The US and the "world coalition" have a real chance to change the world if they address some foreign policy issues after they stabilize the terrorism situation."
Not a long time ago, a similar "world coalition" was brought together in order to combat a "Hitler" who was gasssing his own people and had invaded a neighbour to the south, thereby threatening the oil supplies that we rely on.
Bush Sr's rhetoric of "NEW WORLD ORDER" is (conveniently) forgotten now, but the coalition of Arab states was brought together under the proviso that a change in foreign policy would occur to right the wrongs done to not only israel, but also to palestinians.
re: Wall Street Aghast at TragedyHave any of you considered trying to contact and maybe appear on CNN, Fox, etc.? It would be beneficial to have some alternate views expressed.
No, it isn't for lack of alternative opinions that none are shown on American TV. Alternative opininons are not welcome on TV these days. Print journalism does manage to offer some timid responses to the revenge juggernaut but the networks, especially Fox, have a right wing agenda that has nothing to do with informing the public.
Jewish Crusade? That's pretty rich. Sounds like we have a very confused terrorist on our hands. ;-)
Sorry, them's the facts. BTW, I am neither anti-Zionist nor anti-Semetic, so get off that cheap label-'em horse.
Have I called you any names yet?
Now you know why Bush said what he said: he had to bait 'em out into the open. Rather than being stupid as you thought, I think it was very smart. Texas frat-boy outsmarts him.
I really doubt that. I live in Texas. Bush was my governor before he was my president. I'm pretty confident it was not a clever ruse to smoke out a madman. And I don't know how much use it is to get a madman to spout more madness anyway. I don't think anyone on this side of the world questions Bin Laden's madness. And in the madrassas of the Pushtun country from Afghanistan to Northern Pakistan I don't think the absurdity of a "jewish crusader" will have much impact. In fact, I suspect it will play well into the set of religious prejudices commonly taught in radical madrassas. So what's the point if this is such a smart ploy on Bush's part?