I did not attribute anything to you or quote you in my post. Everything I wrote was my response to your message. When I wrote about your "message below", I meant your previous post, which I was planning to attach (below my message) but forgot to. A simple mistake.
Gardner, the level of your hostility and unpleasantness is unbelievable.
re: The Effect of War on TelecomCoincidence? It is recorded history my colleagues. Some instances to compare: ---------
I might remind you that the most recent incedent on your list is probably in the early 1970's.
As a refresher:
- The US pressured the original dictators out of Haiti within the last ten years. In the long run, it did no good, but at least they tried.
- The US finally overthrew the government of Panama. You can question its reasons, but you can't question that the result was positive for Panama.
- Would Grenada have been better off if the gang that murdered the prime minister had kept power? I dont think so.
- Would bosnia or Kosovo or serbia be better today if the US had followed "international consensus". (which was to do nothing).
- Should the US have let Somalia starve? The US tried to do something positive in the face of a humantarian catastrophy....and what was the result. All the anti-american journalists invented an oil conspiracy concerning Somalia.
- Should the US have turned its back on Kuwait in 1990? Kuwait isn't a democracy, but its better than most anyplace else in the region.
If there is one thing people are getting sick of, its a dishonest use of what is becoming really old history to justify attitudes which make little sense.
Robert Mugabe is a fascist, a racist and has been an imperialist oppressor in the congo with his army. He has destroyed his country to make himself and his friends rich. But all he has to do is say a handful of words about the evils of colonialism and his critics in europe go off to a corner for a round of crying and self-pity.
In a similar vein, listening to Iraqi's talk about their suffering under colonialism is amusing. Considering that the total period of direct colonial rule was little over ten years. But to the international "anti" crowd, a decade of colonial rule by the british is somehow a larger thing in Iraqi history than 50 years of coups, civil wars and wars with neighbors inflicted by home-grown rulers.
re: The Effect of War on Telecom"Anyway, Germany and France are irrelevant in the great scheme of things."
This is the main problem with the American. My way or No way.
Yet in the 21st century, one would expect that diplomacy and respect should prevail, instead of behaving like Attila the Hun.
With so many advances in different fields ( technology, medicine, sciences etc)achieved in the past centuryand the lessons learned on how and why war is not the means to justify the end, one would assume that the west will not behave like barbarians . But it seems that greed still rules. Please don't mention DEMOCRACY.
re: The Effect of War on Telecom"Kuwait isn't a democracy, but its better than most anyplace else in the region."
have you been there? Better for whom-its citizens minus the women who are not allowed to vote, the holders of US passports instead of an Egyptian or an Indonesian labourer since the govt jobs are ONLY for the British and American advisers and the few Kuwaitis.
Forget about racism and discrimination against their own Moslem brothers.
re: The Effect of War on TelecomThese countries are rather irrelevant nowadays. It does not need to be construed as a personal attack on them but face it, their influence in Europe is waning and their posturing over Iraq and the UN was rather telling. France could offer no serious argument as to why Iraq should not have a final date to show it had complied with UN demands and it seems that they spent a ton of time undermining UN sanctions all along. Germany's economy is crumbling and both of them have turned to appeasement and underhandedness as the context for their foreign policy.
Oh, and I gotta say that your comments about the west being barbarians is just sooooooo accurate in comparison to the rest of the world. Last time I looked we didn't have public beheadings, removal of limbs for stealing bread to eat, stoning for "adultry", killing women for whatever reason you want and all of the rest of the bulls_it Islamic justice. Or how about China throwing people in jail for being in what the state calls a cult? How about their execution vans so as to improve the ability to punish criminals? And what about Tibet?????
Barbarians??? I have heard that accusation from Asians before and I have to laugh when I consider the source.
re: The Effect of War on TelecomThe point that is missed is that we were instigating and supplying both sides of the war and claiming to be neutral. Moreover, the US complained much latter of the use of WMD. ------------------- So drawing a conclusion from your "points", it would seem that the US should not be concerned with or complain about the Iraqi nuclear or long-range missle programs because it didn't complain about chemical weapons 20 years ago.
The problem with resorting to history in this instance, is that its an attempt to justify something that cannot be justified objectively based on the present situation.
Regardless of what the US has or has not done, Iraq has invaded two of its neighbors in 20 years. It spent billions attempting to develop nuclear weapons and it fired long-range missles at a country (Israel) it had no particular (active) fight with.
Now whatever the US has or has not done in the past, I look at what Iraq has done and will probably do if sanctions are lifted and it concerns me greatly. I dont think a nuclear war or long-range missile bombardmant warfare are a positive thing for the middle east. I don't think that Iraq re-arming has any positive outcome associated with it.
re: The Effect of War on TelecomHad to chime in with a few thoughts:
1) We are NOT a democracy, we are a federated republic. We vote for people who, in turn, vote on our behalf. 2) Peter Arnett and the rest of the pundits complaining about war strategy have no earthly idea what they are talking about. I'll digress: A note on our current Sec of Def Rumsfeld
> Attended Princeton University on Scholarship (AB, 1954) and served in the > U.S. Navy (1954-57) as a Naval aviator; Congressional Assistant to Rep. > Robert Griffin (R-MI), 1957-59; U.S. Representative, Illinois, 1962-69; > Assistant to the President, Director of the Office of Economic Opportunity, > Director of the Cost of Living Council, 1969-74; U.S. Ambassador to NATO, > 1973-74; head of Presidential Transition Team, 1974; Assistant to the > President, Director of White House Office of Operations, White House Chief > of Staff, 1974-77; Secretary of Defense, 1975-77. And people like Arnett and so called experts, with no direct knowledge of current intel, suggest we are failing. God only knows what they woulda said during the battle of the bulge when Hitler counterattacked and nearly broke our lines.
Remember these suicide bombers and militas are an annoyance and have no real bearing on the outcome of this war. I really fail to see how anyone with knowledge of conflicts can say the US should be worried about a bunch of thugs terrorizing their own people. One thing I find facinating is that the Arab street hates the US so much they are willing to support Sadaam, who has killed MORE MUSLIMS THAN ANYONE IN RECENT HISTORY. He has blown his own oil wells, which he claimed he would never do, his henchmen cut off water from southern iraqi towns as they headed north, they laid mines in the port of um qsar to delay humanitarian aid from arriving. This man is committing his last acts of hatred on his own people and none of this is broadcast to the Arab street. They only see images of civilian deaths, yet the street never sees images of the 5,000 infants that starve to death every month b/c they lack food and clean water in Iraq. And we all know, there is at least a 50% chance that these civilian deaths are caused by Iraqi AAA fire returning to earth after missing their targets. I'm convinced there is nothing we can do to change Arab public opinion. They are, on the whole, uneducated and brainwashed by religuos leaders. One question, how can anyone claim to be a holy man in any religion while endorsing suicide bombings and jihad against America? Religion is a tool to control the weak, and Muslims have perfected this use.
This is the main problem with the American. My way or No way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Let's face it, Sunshine (sorry, too many gardner posts), America IS the big boy on the block these days. (Feel free to hum the Battle Hymn of the Reublic as you read on, oh faithful LR posters.)
So much effort is spent in criticizing U.S. policy in various areas of the world. Since America is the the lone superpower, it has a responsibility to serve as the world's policeman. The problem is that much of the criticism is not constructive. If the U.S. is going to have this role (it's just the way it is), then take it or leave it. If the U.S. were to drop out of the political scene (i.e. leave NATO, kick the U.N. out of New York, end immigration, dump Israel, leave South Korea, Germany, Kuwait, Cuba, etc.), the world will be thrust into utter chaos over night. You would need to be mad to think otherwise.
Who would (COULD!) take up the slack? Russia? Germany? France??? How easy it would be if the U.S. only had to defend its own borders!!!! How quickly many of America's economic woes would disappear if we would only call in the debt that is owed to us by most of the world!
I am by no means suggesting that the U.S. is impervious to criticism. However, like Bill Parcells once said (paraphrase): "If they're going to ask you to make the dinner, they should at least let you buy some of the groceries."
re: The Effect of War on Telecomhave you been there? Better for whom-its citizens minus the women who are not allowed to vote, the holders of US passports instead of an Egyptian or an Indonesian labourer since the govt jobs are ONLY for the British and American advisers and the few Kuwaitis. ----------------- I have been to europe. And for those who want to question Kuwait about Egyptians or Indonesians, you might want to look around europe at all of those "guest workers" or illegals who do jobs that are not good enough for many "real europeans" to take.
And how many civil service jobs in the EU are reserved for non-citizens? Or, to be clear, non-citizens without the financial means to buy their way over certain barriers.
re: The Effect of War on Telecom"France, Germany and Canada are as free as the US, this is certainly true. How much of a hand did America have in ensuring the freedom of the people of these nations?"
With respect to France, maybe the US was just paying back the favor rendered in 1776?
I did not attribute anything to you or quote you in my post. Everything I wrote was my response to your message. When I wrote about your "message below", I meant your previous post, which I was planning to attach (below my message) but forgot to. A simple mistake.
Gardner, the level of your hostility and unpleasantness is unbelievable.
Benson