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BigBrother
BigBrother
12/5/2012 | 4:08:40 AM
re: QOS Fees Could Change Everything
See the following link for P-P information, there were some updated one from others.

http://www.sandvine.com/news/p...
unlimited
unlimited
12/5/2012 | 4:08:40 AM
re: QOS Fees Could Change Everything
Steve,

No you do not have it right. You have created facts that I did not write or even intend. I do not expect a totally free network and indeed today I pay for my broadband connection. BTW it may help to add that I do not run any P2P applications and only some private VoIP. I only consume a modest amount of my broadband Internet connection's capacity. In all my posts I have never said I want more bandwidth or lower prices. I simply asked what do we get for what we pay. It is not quantified.

All the Internet content providers have paid for their Internet connections. Their agreements let them send and receive traffic as best-effort over the Internet. The traffic is exchanged by way of the backbones with Internet access networks (e.g. BellSouth) who will also pay for carriage of traffic. The point is the owners of the various networks that comprise the Internet (it is _not_ one network) are paid to carry the traffic.

I am not interested in IPTV, or PSTN quality VoIP or QoS. I understand that the Bell's hate the fact that all the value and innovation happens outside their control and will kick and scream about it. However, whatever they do it better have user value. Not asking for free, Steve, just value! The reality is the RBOCs are desperate for new revenues but would rather blockade their competition (the Internet) and raise prices than create real value which takes time and is risky.

As to the business case here is a thought to consider. The network infrastructure is capital intensive and likely to be low margin. The applications will be higher value and higher margin. So naturally companies want to do the latter. The trouble is that these businesses have different skill sets and very different financial performance and so will naturally be separated internally. Then the accountants begin to wonder why they can't redirect more resources to the services side because the ROI is much better. Before too long they are wanting to divest themselves of the infrastructure. If that happens then in the long term the very thing that RBOCs fear today will become reality. This is vertical integration versus the horizontal industry.
paolo.franzoi
paolo.franzoi
12/5/2012 | 4:08:40 AM
re: QOS Fees Could Change Everything

This will crush Earthlink, unlimited. They will have no way to respond to the capabilities of the local access providers. Nobody cares about the Internet. People only care about what is on the other side of the Internet. If there is an alternative way that works better for them, then they will switch.

You should assume that the independent ISPs are corpses, they just don't know it yet.

The cable companies are ALREADY doing this with their VoIP offerings. These are prioritized over Internet traffic over the common access infrastructure.

seven
PO
PO
12/5/2012 | 4:08:40 AM
re: QOS Fees Could Change Everything
"Unfortunately, over the years, there have been many studies to show that P-P traffic takes up about 60-70% of the telco bandwidth, and the top 10-15% of the users take up the 90% of the bandwidth."

Where is your citation for this "statistic"?

Sure, we've all seen edge gear vendors try to hype such numbers in order to sell their stuff, but as a networking claim it's been largely discredited.
PO
PO
12/5/2012 | 4:08:39 AM
re: QOS Fees Could Change Everything
"See the following link for P-P information, there were some updated one from others. ..."

All I see at that link is a claim from a vendor trying to hype their equipment. What I need to see is a proper networking study, analyzing traffic at the edge, across the ISP, at the POP, and across the core.

The following link certainly isn't a proper study, but it does provide a much more informed view of traffic breakdown by categorizing traffic at the San Diego NAP (by bytes).
http://www.caida.org/dynamic/a...
http://www.caida.org/dynamic/a...
http://www.caida.org/dynamic/a...
unlimited
unlimited
12/5/2012 | 4:08:39 AM
re: QOS Fees Could Change Everything
Seven,

You might be right but I hope not. The stakes are high for all parties and it's difficult to be sure exactly how things will play out. Thus far I have argued for what I think would create the most interesting environment in the long run.

But what is actually happening? The RBOCs and Cable companies are heading into what promises to be a brutal battle. Each has much to gain at the expense of the other, so who will win, or will they both lose? That's going to be a major distraction for them. Meanwhile, there are power companies planning to get into the broadband business, there are municipal wireless broadband networks being built and cellular networks are improving their data services. The dialup ISPs (of which Earthlink is one) know they need to move into broadband and other Internet services to survive. To that end you see Eathlink starting to offer VoIP service, they are working with SK Telecom for wireless services and they are building the wireless networks for Anaheim and Philadelphia to name a few activities. I should mention WiMAX, WiFi and other developments in wireless technology introduce new possibilities for access competition. This makes a very complex and highly competitive environment that will be quite volatile. Given this as the backdrop, IMS, IPTV, and triple/quadruple plays look like elements to inflate another bubble.

Let's not stop there though. Recently consumer electronics has headed into digital media in a big way. Apple's success with digital music has got people wondering about digital video and the direction is going towards home media servers, HDTV, DVR's, and digital audio sound systems networked together over 802.11 wireless LANs. There's plenty there to occupy people's attention and finances. In other words how much competition is there for consumer's money? Will they be looking to spend more on TV services or will they look to cut the cost of some existing services? As they upgrade to HD digital cable do they finally drop their primary line and rely on their cell phone? I'm not suggesting I know the answer.

But I'll end with a thought about mobile data service. There's a lot of focus these days on mobile computing. Of course we have desktops but increasingly we have data to manage and store while mobile. The amount of compute power, portable storage capacity, and multimedia capabilties that can be packed into a handheld device is rivaling what desktops had 5 years ago. As we proceed down this path do we want seamless mobility between fixed and mobile data networks or do we just want the mobile data service? What if by the time all the fixed access infrastructure is upgraded, people find that their mobile data service is all they need and cancel their fixed line services just like is happening with voice today?

Everything is now moving so fast that industry players have to hit a moving target. Of course the quicker you move the easier it is to predict where the target will be.
stephencooke
stephencooke
12/5/2012 | 4:08:39 AM
re: QOS Fees Could Change Everything
Unlimted,

Sorry if I misunderstood. However, the thing that you may be missing is that the carriers are scared stiff. They are losing a significant percentage of their high-revenue clientelle to VoIP providers (including their own internal VoIP business unit). Their bread and butter is walking.

Put yourself in their shoes for a minute... Their shareholders are looking for a rosy dividend picture (and their employees want to keep their jobs) which requires new sources of revenue as the old ones are leaving. They have customers who are willing to pay them more money for a capability that is available (with a relatively small amount of effort vs. deploying a new network) in their existing network. They have value-added services that they can offer as an additional revenue source but it has to be good or people won't switch from their existing cable providers to get it. They are already late to market with this service even though they have all been doing trials for years.

For that service offering, 'best effort' is not good enough for their customers to pay additional money for. I get the impression that people seem to think that the current traffic types will be wiped out completely by providing QoS. This is not the case. Those traffic types will just have to share a smaller portion of the total available bandwidth. Bottom line is that the current model, which you seem to be defending, cannot survive in its current form.

While you are correct that you pay for your current bandwidth, the law of supply and demand still holds. If there is someone willing to pay more, they will get first shot. The price of vanilla Internet access is incredibly competitive and very low margin. This is not the kind of business that carriers are interested in unless it can be turned into a means to a more profitable end. QoS on the existing network is the enabler of the services that are the more profitable end. We have been paying less and getting more in terms of bandwidth. Don't be surprised to see offers that allow you to pay less and actually get less.

Don't forget that this is a survival tactic for carriers, not a nice to have.

Steve.
sgan201
sgan201
12/5/2012 | 4:08:38 AM
re: QOS Fees Could Change Everything
Let me summarize what I want in a simple fashion. I pay for X dollar for my internet access. If the network is not congested, I should be allowed to burst and use more bandwidth. If the network is congested, I want a guarantee that I will get Y Kbps.

I do not want the SP to look into my Internet access and prioritize what application has higher priority. I can do this via my normal Linksys router at home.

I am willing to pay more for a greater Y.

Dreamer
PO
PO
12/5/2012 | 4:08:38 AM
re: QOS Fees Could Change Everything
" If the network is congested, I want a guarantee that I will get Y Kbps."

No such guarantee is possible, in general.

Nobody can predict where in the network the congestion will be encountered which dominates the Bandwidth-Delay Product for your network traffic.

What you want is to rewrite BGP (and possibly TCP), rather than add some sort of "QoS" to the network.
paolo.franzoi
paolo.franzoi
12/5/2012 | 4:08:37 AM
re: QOS Fees Could Change Everything

Dreamer,

It is under your local access provider's control. Not your ISP.

seven
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