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bbasmdc 12/5/2012 | 2:58:12 PM
re: PBT Cost Claims Questioned The whole PBT fiasco has gotten out of control.

Remember that BT is the only substantive carrier to consider deploying PBT (for the moment). And originally they intended to use it only in the backhaul network to deliver three specific features:

- Had to be based on Ethernet to allow them to deploy the Ethernet DSLAMs (called MSANs) that are an integral component of 21CN.

- Had to allow a scalable encapsulation scheme in order to enable BT Wholesale to carry multiple retail ISP traffic streams in separate logical pathways across the same backhaul link. This is a feature of the UK retail/wholesale model, and itGÇÖs one reason that ATM has been used in this part of the network historically. (Note the other is supposedly QoS, but this was always a red herring).

- Had to be cheap enough to scare the willies out of Cisco, Juniper and Alcatel, who were, and are still, all pushing VPLS solutions to BT. After all, theyGÇÖve only invested a few man-decades of development and test effort in MPLS/VPLS so itGÇÖd be nice if carriers keep deploying it.

Luckily Nortel stumbled across the BT requirement (while they were trying to convince BT to look at their platform for the 21CN iNode) and was willing to eat margin on those PBT boxes in order to stay engaged in BT 21CN, and to establish the myth that PBT is "cheaper" than MPLS. In fact an Ethernet box without a control plane will be slightly cheaper than a similar box with a control plane, but not so much cheaper that it will ever make up for the horrendous increase in operational costs a carrier would face if they deployed the box beyond a very limited scope. Remember, you need to save $5 of CapEx for every $1 of annual OpEx that you add GÇô and thatGÇÖs a very lenient view of the equation.

Meanwhile Nortel started making lots of noise about PBT, and tried to find another carrier to deploy it. A few carriers showed some interest, and there was a real incentive for those carriers to tell the world they were looking at PBT because they wanted to scare Cisco, Juniper and Alcatel too! How else can you get vendors who are retaining 70+ points of margin to cut their prices? Hey GÇô those carriers never need to really deploy PBT, they just have to say they might and they get another ten points of discount from their existing supplier!

But for any carrier to use PBT beyond the relatively modest scope that BT was considering, PBT needs a control plane. Without it PBT is just an encapsulation (plus some OAM that's built into carrier Ethernet anyway, but needs a labelling scheme to hook onto). Add a control plane to PBT and GÇô good grief GÇô where did that cost saving go!

So by getting out of hand thereGÇÖs a danger that some carriers may now really deploy PBT, because theyGÇÖll fall for the hype. And if the hype continues it means that a whole set of vendors who claim to be GÇ£technology agnosticGÇ¥ will end up supporting both techniques. Please donGÇÖt confuse this with GÇ£survival of the fittestGÇ¥. MPLS already beat ATM and has been proven to work and scale.

If carriers think that MPLS vendors are charging too much for their boxes, then thatGÇÖs the problem that needs to be fixed.
metroman 12/5/2012 | 2:58:12 PM
re: PBT Cost Claims Questioned Did he say anything that was fundamentally wrong? I am not sure he did. Yes he only spoke about the negative aspects of PBT and countered them by saying that MPLS was ready to do this today - not that shocking. Phil is a pretty decent guy who knows what he is talking about - no I am not part of the Russo collective.

Once the real case for deploying PBT with service capabilities such as Multicast is known then a direct comparison can be made - until then, if you need Multicast you cannot consider PBT. You can consider PBT in environments where it's current capabilities are enough. Not rocket science. Everyone is going to sell what they have - Extreme have tried to go down the MPLS route but were never prepared to invest in a suitable platform. Now that they feel that they can use their old purple boxes for PBT they are on the bandwaggon.

I suspect that some of the lesson's learned from PBT will be adapted into the MPLS world.

The operational complexity of adding a new management overlay for an operator is measured in more than just money. The increased complexity of the estate is a key factor. Most major operators have chosen some form of MPLS platform whether it be a core IPVPN platform or a VPLS based aggregation layer. Adding a new technology such as PBT has so many knock-on effects - can you be sure that you can find and fix faults quickly enough, do you have engineers trained to deliver it - are your asset registers and databases able to populate the data for this new technology - how do you ensure end-to-end reliability within a contracted SLA - how do you swap out faulty hardware without affecting other critical customers - There may be answers to all of these and other questions, but adding another technology to the mix does not just add the cost of that new technology but also the exponential costs of making it work seamlessley in all aspects of an existing operational envirnoment. MPLS has a better chance of doing this in most operators.

Metroman
litereading 12/5/2012 | 2:58:12 PM
re: PBT Cost Claims Questioned And what would you expect the MPLS premium price leader to say? Kinda like claiming VoIP could ever replace TDM? Oops, it is....
bbasmdc 12/5/2012 | 2:58:11 PM
re: PBT Cost Claims Questioned Even within BT a number of people are now becoming very uncomfortable with the hype surrounding PBT. It was all very well when it was seen as an exciting challenge to MPLS.

BT doesn't want to be seen as the poster child for a technology that has "waste of effort" written all over it.
t.bogataj 12/5/2012 | 2:58:11 PM
re: PBT Cost Claims Questioned That's what I love about myself: Being right months before others get it.

Finally, the time has come for PBT bubble to start, well, cracking at least. The hype is fading. The industry and providers are beginning to show a more mature approach: weighing real costs, not the advertised ones. Unfortunately, it took them almost a year to get to this point.

Gosh, if only they had listened to me earlier...

tata, T.
metroman 12/5/2012 | 2:58:11 PM
re: PBT Cost Claims Questioned Pseudowires don't make a mess, they use broadly the same signalling as any other LSP. The people who implemented them without the right operational model might have made a mess.....

And of course there are operational costs to implement Pseudowires - who was it who was questioning that? The point being made is that the statements about the "low cost" of PBT are a bit wide of the mark when it comes to making it work in the real world. I hear that PBT is a money making machine when implemented in Excel and ppt.

Metroman

LightCycle 12/5/2012 | 2:58:11 PM
re: PBT Cost Claims Questioned ... so it doesn't cost a single cent to manage the bloody mess that Pseudowires make in an MPLS network. Right right...
metroman 12/5/2012 | 2:58:11 PM
re: PBT Cost Claims Questioned ......and to think, you were only in a minority of thousands as well!

In a Lightreading Webinar 18 months ago only ~5% of people thought that they might choose PBT - I am reliably informed that the majority of those people who voted for it were Nortel employees. In the mean time some have been swayed by the hype.

Well done you!

Metroman
bbasmdc 12/5/2012 | 2:58:10 PM
re: PBT Cost Claims Questioned Fact is that most of the attendees on these webinars are manufacturers.

So all the Nortel guys will vote PBT and everyone else will vote MPLS.

The BT guy who might have been listening would have voted for both because they're using MPLS in the core and a bit of PBT in the backhaul.
dapcan 12/5/2012 | 2:58:10 PM
re: PBT Cost Claims Questioned Wow.

I was reliably informed that most that voted for MPLS made MPLS products, not customers.

I wonder what that means?
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