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Fortunecookie 12/4/2012 | 11:35:59 PM
re: Foreign Worker Poll Points to Paradox I have been perplexed for a long time. Would somebody here give me some enlightenment?(seriously, I am not joking.)

When I was in China, in the early 1980s, shortly after the Cultural Revolution, the brighest students went for Physics and Math., The secondary went to other science and Engineering majors. Not many people went to Medical and Law.

Starting for middle 1980s, the brightest kids in China went to CS and EE, and then other engineerings.

Since I came to the U.S., I heard many times that the brightest American kids went to Medical, Business and Law. I guess the high compensation of those professins was the motivation.

But my question is why they are paid much higher. Engineering takes a lot of brains and hard work. MBA only needs two years training, but how come when I was at Bell Lab, my boss's boss's boss was a young MBA, and My boss's boss, my boss and I all had Ph.D. degrees from the top universities in the U.S.? I just don't get it!!!
(My boss's boss and my boss are all white Americans and extremely smart. So I guess there is no discrimination here.)

Law needs 3 years training, and personally I don't like many of them because many of them are just professional liars. (I have met only one honest lawyer so far.)

In my mind, medical doctors probably deserve what they are making, but their training is not much harder than when I have gone thru for my Ph.D. (2 years master and 4 years Ph.D., and some majors need few years Postdoc experience to land a real job.). Their salary (>200K/Yr) is still much higher than my salary (roughly 100K/yr).

What caused the salary disparity? In any sense, Engineering needs as much intelligenece, training and hard working as, if not more than, other professions, but with much lower salary. Maybe this is the reason that not many merican kids want to go to engineering schools.

krish1899 12/4/2012 | 11:35:59 PM
re: Foreign Worker Poll Points to Paradox What a bunch of whiny-sorry-assed-losers. Just because the economy goes down a lil. everone screaming for everyone else's head. Yeah! Get rid of the H1-B workers, then the GC's and heck if that dont do it send ppl. who became citezens in the last 10 years where they come from. And ofcourse if that dont work either then start inventing slogans like "Californian Jobs for Californians", LOL!! I recently heard this ad. "Be californian, buy californian".

The real funny part is just a few years back the scream was for "Globalization", well here it is. So ppl. stop wimping and get on with it and ask a few good questions like,

- Did u ever think about what ur company was supposed to be producing in the boom time or were u just happy to work in the "latest technology" and get ur fat paychecks.

- How much of the code that you have written in the last 5 years has ever gone into production.

- Ever thought of why the boom happened and now why the bust and the real reasons for both ?

I say heck have more globalization, instead of companies being allowed to move freely around the globe, allow people to move freely, get rid of all the restrictions, and COMPETE FAIRLY.

atmguy 12/4/2012 | 11:35:58 PM
re: Foreign Worker Poll Points to Paradox FC:
"In my mind, medical doctors probably deserve what they are making, but their training is not much harder than when I have gone thru for my Ph.D. (2 years master and 4 years Ph.D., and some majors need few years Postdoc experience to land a real job.). "

In my opinion, it is because doctors and lawyers provide direct service. They directly talk to the patients/clients and have tighter control over their destiny. They win a case, they save somebody, everyone is happy.

Where as, we engineers have a middle man(men/women/person) and lots of them. Lots of times, we don't even know our clients/customers. Ergo, no control, no glory, yaddi, yaddi..

As far as MBA making more money, I have no idea and so, no comments.

My 2c.
atmguy 12/4/2012 | 11:35:57 PM
re: Foreign Worker Poll Points to Paradox Hanman:
I bet you are a H1B holder!

It looks like old H1B holders (guys who came in 1998/99 etc.) now are opposed to H1B extension. This is from a discussion we had with some H1B folks. So, companies are finding ways to replace H1Bs with new H1B crowd.

It is like a musical chair, is'nt it?
whyiswhy 12/4/2012 | 11:35:56 PM
re: Foreign Worker Poll Points to Paradox Supply and demand, and political clout.

So: wages are supply and demand to a degree, and there are clearly not enough MDs, so they get paid well.

So where is H1B for MDs? Are american medical schools the only ones that can teach human medicine?

Nope, but US MDs have the AMA.

Same with US attorneys, they have the ABA.

To top it off, many (most) doctors open up a private practice (business) and don't work for wages. Same with Lawyers. So like most entrepreneurs, they pay themselves well. Paying themselves well means they can afford to buy the politicians to pass laws that protect them as a class. And they stick together: AMA, ABA.

Engineers are too ignorant of how the world works to organize politically...and they let the organizations that were supposed to help them have a voice in Washington (like IEEE) be corrupted into useless paper publishing houses for the academics. Oh yes, they also publish 802.xx standards for the marketeers of the world.

How many engineers are members of the IEEE? How many doctors are out there are members of the AMA? Or lawyers members of the ABA?

I would wager that less than 2% of the engineers in the US are members of the IEEE (or any other professional organization), whereas I would wager doctors and lawyers can tout numbers in the high 90%'s. Those PAC's (AMA, ABA) gets votes and respect.

Crap, even the NRA gets more respect than the IEEE, and politicians have a hard time explaining that one to the public. But they always vote with the PAC money / threat of letter writing campaign.

It's really that simple, folks.


PS: As far as business is concerned, I don't get the facination for MBA's either. I've been in executive management for many years, and have been amazed at how little they know about how to really administer a business, relative to say an MSEE about how to design a circuit.
techoriginol 12/4/2012 | 11:35:56 PM
re: Foreign Worker Poll Points to Paradox We as American (and Canadian) engineers do not have much of a chance when it comes to outsourcing hardware/firmware/software development and support work to companies like Wipro Technologies in India.

Their engineers get paid 1/6 of an American Engineer and these are some of the benefits that the Wipro folks have access to according to the Wipro website
at http://www.wipro.com/.

The governing theme in Wipro is the well being of our employees. The benefits offered are on par with the best available.

Our compensation package is among the best in the industry and is aimed at not only attracting but also retaining the best talent. The package caters to all positions across Wipro. Rewards for each position are based on performance, potential, criticality, and market value. Besides the base pay, we offer deferred benefits such as a provident fund, gratuity, and a pension plan.

We have a comprehensive medical assistance program that covers anything you or your family may incur. For new employees we provide interest free loans to cover housing deposits or the purchase of a two-wheeler. We also provide contingency loans for marriage, illness, or the death of a close family member.


Do we stand a chance? After all customer support, accounting, scientific reasearch, some college instruction, etc are now being outsourced to India. Even American X-rays and CAT-scans are now being sent to India for analysis by Indian doctors. And the American flag that we were waving on the 4th probably has a "Made In China" label on it.
techoriginol 12/4/2012 | 11:35:55 PM
re: Foreign Worker Poll Points to Paradox I've heard his talk shows. Generally speaking Neal Boortz is a pretty smart guy. However when it comes to technology, computers, or anything "foreign" the guy is a complete idiot.

The guy doesnt know UNIX from Undies and does not really know what engineers do. He's the type of American that Europeans laugh about because he really doesn't know the capital of France.
flam 12/4/2012 | 11:35:55 PM
re: Foreign Worker Poll Points to Paradox "... H1B for MDs ..."

MDs protect themselves better than you think. Say you're a potential H1B engineer whose spouse is an MD. There is no way you'll get a visa. Even a greencarded resident alien whose spouse is an MD will have to leave the country (assuming s/he wants to be with said spouse) while waiting for the spouse to clear the appropriate checks - written examinations and the like.

I believe the same applies to even nurses.
NMSgoddess 12/4/2012 | 11:35:55 PM
re: Foreign Worker Poll Points to Paradox Nope-

Nurses are getting in under the easier fence of L1s. Many from the Phillipines. There was a TV show where S. Africa petitioned the UN to stop the USA from taking all its nurses. Interesting now that nursing salaries are starting to rise in the US and the gov't is trying to eliminate overtime pay for nurses and other skilled trades.

Also, when I was in college getting my BSEE the only other major that worked as hard as I did were the nursing majors. Nurses (in the 1980 anyway)were very skilled yet underpaid, which is why I decided to become an engineer since it took the same amount of brains and work.

NMSgoddess 12/4/2012 | 11:35:55 PM
re: Foreign Worker Poll Points to Paradox I want to thank all the posters in this thread. In some warped way I feel better, At least I am not alone.

Now for the subject-

Congressmen from the 3rd (Richardson Telcom Corr) and 26th (neighboring subdivisions) are very anti visa and very pro restriction on visas.

According to Sam Johnsons (3rd district) Texas receptionist, Sam has been getting emails, phone calls, and physical visits from people concering outsourcing and visas. It is a very important issue and he is very sympathetic about the effects.

M. Burgess ( the 26th) is very much against visas, I suspect he is dealing with EDS ex-employees. He wants to halt student visas that convert to H1-Bs as well.

So if the Senator isn't helping, try your congressional rep and keep looking to you find someone who supports you. maybe you should schedule a physical meeting.

If Cornyn doesn't support what you want, try peer pressure. Write Kay Baily or look for someone to support your view and ask them to adress the person who doesn't agree.

I would hope that the local IEEE chapters would take a more political role (like doctors ala AMA) and invite their area represenatives to a meeting- but I doubt that will happen.

(just another 3 times unemployed Texan)

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