re: Force10 Relocates Jobs to India>> It isn't money that creates jobs, it is ideas and the leadership to see those ideas through that creates jobs. Money is the reward for doing so and creates the necessary incentive.
Leadership, ideas, reward ... these are all fine. However, do not expect SUCKERS to work for your startup 6/7 days a week. Get your work done by offshoring model if you would NOT like to spend for development. Developers are not a disposable commodity
Fool me once shame on you...fool me twice shame on me
"It isn't money that creates jobs, it is ideas and the leadership to see those ideas through that creates jobs. Money is the reward for doing so and creates the necessary incentive.
The vampire class are those that feel it is their entitlement to be successful without having to provide value. I don't count myself among them."
Dick:
Money does not create jobs...you got that part right. AND your ideas and leadership likely did not create the jobs either. The jobs were created by human needs and desires. Money (per se) is not necessary for jobs. A pure barter economy creates jobs through sharing of labor.
Money is supposed to be something tangible. It is supposed to have intrinsic value....like Gold or Silver. We as a society get into major trouble when that principle is violated: calling paper money. That's what allows arbitrage.
re: Force10 Relocates Jobs to IndiaWhy: Money is supposed to be something tangible. It is supposed to have intrinsic value....like Gold or Silver. We as a society get into major trouble when that principle is violated: calling paper money. That's what allows arbitrage. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Interesting. Now you've set me to thinking: is arbitrage possible without "paper money" ? Actually I think it is, for example, a gallon of water will command a higher price in Death Valley than it will in Lake Michigan. But maybe we're talking about something different now? Anyway, you are correct: it's the needs and desires that create jobs, more accurately create the demand for _something_ to be done.
Oh, but I forgot, I'm just a mediocre, incompetent engineer. Just don't call me a doofus. Or a vampire. Gads, what a fascinating thread this is.
"Interesting. Now you've set me to thinking: is arbitrage possible without "paper money" ? Actually I think it is, for example, a gallon of water will command a higher price in Death Valley than it will in Lake Michigan. But maybe we're talking about something different now?"
No. Arbitrage is the opposite of stable supply and demand. It's all about creating supply on the basis of making something artificially cheap. It's based on f'ing up stable market supply and demand forces.
It's based on "let's pretend" so bankers can get rich. Nevermind the money has to be paid back, and at some point it comes back to bite all the others involved in the ass: it never bites bankers. Banks maybe once in a Blue Moon, individual bankers never.
Greed and wealth: an extremely dangerous combination.
re: Force10 Relocates Jobs to IndiaWhy: Money does not create jobs...you got that part right.
Glad you've come around on that one.
AND your ideas and leadership likely did not create the jobs either. The jobs were created by human needs and desires. Money (per se) is not necessary for jobs. A pure barter economy creates jobs through sharing of labor.
Needs and desires don't create jobs. Jobs don't spring forth from the existence of problems. You've managed to repackage the saying "necessity is the mother of all invention", but that saying didn't need improvement. But there's the catch, "invention" comes from the capacity of the brain to solve problems (the "ideas" part I was talking about). Just because there are problems doesn't mean there are jobs. Not until someone figures out how to solve the problem are there jobs. The problem solver is the creator, the problem itself isn't.
Money is supposed to be something tangible. It is supposed to have intrinsic value....like Gold or Silver. We as a society get into major trouble when that principle is violated: calling paper money. That's what allows arbitrage.
I agree with you that non-objective monetary systems are shaky. But exchange-rate arbitrage isn't behind outsourcing (can't be with China by definition since Yuan is pegged to the dollar). The "arbitrage" of outsourcing (if you can even call it that) is born out of differences in standard of living between the societies. Even if we only dealt in Gold, someone in India would do an engineering job for less little pieces of Gold than someone in the US because their standard of living is lower and they wouldn't need (or feel they need) as many pieces of Gold. Of course, over time as their average standard of living increases this will no longer be true. Which is good for them (and for us).
re: Force10 Relocates Jobs to IndiaHas anyone noticed that for some reason the trend to outsource has reduced considerably. Some Indian newspaper editorials mention that these jobs are no longer sought after because the time difference is playing havoc into the health of the employed Indian workers who are forced to work all night to answer customers who are awake! Health at the cost of a quick buck is more important to anyone. It does not matter where the person lives.
"I agree with you that non-objective monetary systems are shaky. But exchange-rate arbitrage isn't behind outsourcing (can't be with China by definition since Yuan is pegged to the dollar). The "arbitrage" of outsourcing (if you can even call it that) is born out of differences in standard of living between the societies. Even if we only dealt in Gold, someone in India would do an engineering job for less little pieces of Gold than someone in the US because their standard of living is lower and they wouldn't need (or feel they need) as many pieces of Gold. Of course, over time as their average standard of living increases this will no longer be true. Which is good for them (and for us)."
Let me see if I get your thesis: because the Yuan is pegged to the Dollar, it isn't arbitrage? Are you serious? Clearly you do not know what arbitrage is. Arbitrage is setting an exchange rate not based on supply and demand...i.e. not floating.
That IN AND OF ITSELF is sufficient to screw up ALL the normal rules of capitalist exchange. That statement ought to scare the living crap out of you.
It makes Chinese (and Indian FWIW) goods and services artificially cheap, and our stuff artificially expensive. And not by a little bit. In the case of the Yuan, by about 4 times. You really think that is good in the short or long term? For the normal citizens of either country, I mean, not the bankers?
What has to happen in China and India is runaway inflation: the Yuan and Rupee have to catch up to reality. If the Dollar falls, they have an even bigger problem. I ask again: You really think that is good in the short or long term? For the normal citizens of either country, I mean, not the bankers?
re: Force10 Relocates Jobs to IndiaWASHINGTON: India is becoming a new hub for a highly competitive outsourcing field - debt collection services - with assurances of reducing debt recovery cost and the time needed for the process.
US industry executives say low-cost Indian operations could influence the $18 billion dollar-a-year collections business works in America -- pushing it towards a more focused and persistent pursuit of ever smaller amounts of money, the Wall Street Journal reported on Monday.
re: Force10 Relocates Jobs to IndiaWhy: Let me see if I get your thesis: because the Yuan is pegged to the Dollar, it isn't arbitrage? Are you serious? Clearly you do not know what arbitrage is. Arbitrage is setting an exchange rate not based on supply and demand...i.e. not floating.
Well, you seem to be using a different definition of the word arbitrage than I'm used to, that is for sure. Arbitrage is a form of zero-risk investment that leverages time inefficiencies between markets to make a profit. For instance, taking a short position on a stock in a European exchange while nearly-simultaneously taking a long position in the same stock in an American exchange, to profit from a temporary difference in prices between the two markets.
But if you are arguing that floating is good, then you have just argued against the Gold standard. A Gold standard would be the ultimate fixed currency, and the reasons you want the Yuan and Dollar to float against each other are the same reasons you wouldn't want a Gold standard.
My point with Dollar-Yuan pegging is that it keeps the Dollar and Yuan in lock step so that no exchange arbitrage is possible. I can't simultaneously go long on the Dollar and short the Yuan and make anything, because one is pegged to the other so there are no temporary differences to exploit for profit.
It makes Chinese (and Indian FWIW) goods and services artificially cheap, and our stuff artificially expensive. And not by a little bit. In the case of the Yuan, by about 4 times. You really think that is good in the short or long term? For the normal citizens of either country, I mean, not the bankers?
I agree that wage-differences caused by exchange rate pegging are not good (even given the irony that you are effectively arguing against a Gold standard). However, wage differences caused by standard-of-living differences will not go away if currencies float. What I think is good for the population of the poorer country in this case is that its standard of living will increase as it modernizes as its economy grows. The prosperity of poorer countries is good for all of us. As they prosper they will have higher wage expectations and the playing field will be leveled.
For instance, given that the British Pound floats against the Dollar and the Indian Rupee floats against the Dollar, why is it that it is outsourcing to India vs. outsourcing to England that is giving us fits? Probably because standard of living differential between England and US is not appreciable and therefore wage differential between the two is not as high. If standard of living between the US and India reaches similar parity we won't have to concern ourselves with mass outsourcing to India any more than we do with England.
Regarding bankers, I'm not sure I see how they are making out from currency pegs. It is mostly companies that are affected. Exporters for countries with weak currencies and importers for countries with strong currencies.
Leadership, ideas, reward ... these are all
fine. However, do not expect SUCKERS to work
for your startup 6/7 days a week. Get your work
done by offshoring model if you would NOT like
to spend for development. Developers are not
a disposable commodity
Fool me once shame on you...fool me twice shame
on me