re: Core Blimey!By my math, 40 human beings out of 770 polled failed to indicate familiarity with Juniper despite being familiar (evidently) with core routers. And the LR conclusion is "One in five carriers don't know Juniper makes core routers"??? First, the data does not substantiate that claim. Second, if I were Juniper I'd be happy that almost 82% of my target market knew me. Third, this article actually looks more like an ad for the five thousand dollar report that the hapless marketeers at Juniper will surely buy now.
re: Core Blimey!My view of the world, as told to me by my friends in certain core areas of the world's largest networks: Avici has a rather mentally limited VP of Sales. No vision, blames everyone else, living inside a bubble, etc, etc. They say that's the bottom line, or so they tell me. My two cents are concerning Juniper; They have sharp folks and are a great irritant to Cisco. Full Disclosure: I am not with any of these companies, nor at a competitor. I just have many tentacles of information.
re: Core Blimey!If 20% of the respondants haven't heard of Juniper, then those 20% are not in the business of using core routers, or don't know what "core router" means. I'm not saying Juniper's marketing is great (nor their products), but really their name is unavoidable if you work in this market segment. Heck, even just reading LR every few months would tell you who they are.
Avici being so low I believe - they don't seem to know how to market (too focused on engineering... haven't learned the cisco lesson). And Alcatel has a core router? Shipping? You're not calling the 7670 a core router are you? The word on the street is the 7770 isn't working. But where is Procket, Caspian, Hyperchip, Chiaro, etc. on the list?
re: Core Blimey!Well, of course... If you conduct a random sample of employees at a large carrier, the results will inevitably be as follows:
RCMAC operator: Hello? LR: blah blah "Core Router" blah RCMAC operator: I'm sorry, there's no USOC for that, etc.
Technician 1: What!!? LR: blah blah "Core Router" blah Technician 1: I think you should talk to my shop steward...
Lineman: Ug? LR: "Core Router!" Lineman: Black and Decker?
VP of Network: Howdy! How the heck are ya! LR: blah blah "Core Router" blah VP of Network: We're currently using a Nortel Passport optical network, etc.
re: Core Blimey!First of all, you need to tell us how you conducted the survey, and how the questions were asked.
IF the question was something like, "Rank the top 5 core router companies based on name recognition..." And the response was "Cisco, Juniper, Alcatel, Huawei, Avici".
That means people recognise all 5 of these companies. But if you stretch this to mean only 4 out of 5 people know Juniper, or only 1 of 5 know Avici, then you have some serious issue.
Now, if the response was, "What the hell??? I don't freaking know company X is in this space!" Then, you can say people don't know the company.
This smells like one of those surveys that can be easily manipulated depending on the questions.
re: Core Blimey!It used to be that all telecom equipment from very traditional and large size companies. A partial list of suppliers include: Lucent/Bell Labs,Nortel, Stemens, Alcatel, Ericson, Fijitsu, NEC, Tellabs, and few others. These were very well known companies with the most reliable products and technology.
Starting 1990, there has been huge influx of money from the US and foregn investors. The other companies in the report still do not have carrier grade products. These newcomers had very dishonest VCs and CEOs whose words could not be trusted at any time. Based on deception and lies, these companies targeted carriers and sold them a lot of things that did not work. It is very time consuming to test products from start-ups. In fact Qwest went out of business by testing products from the third rate start-ups mostly operating from california. For example, Ascend Communications cheated big time Lucent. Most of the telecom companies were victimized by start-ups primarily located in California. The RBOCS were led to believe by start-ups that they had products which was well tested and complied with standards. Forexample, Avici supplied core routers to AT&T, but the product did not work for long time. The same deception continued in the area of DWDMs, Mettro Ethernet, edge routers and MSPPs. Many start=ups also fractured the OSS market by not being able to produce which worked.
Almost a decade of deception have destroyed the telecommarket. which is not likely to recover even after 25 years.
re: Core Blimey!If somebody works in a farm in North Dakota feeding cows, and he never heard of Juniper, it is understandable.
But somebody working at service providers does not know Juniper makes core routers ?! BobbyMax, should the Americans who are out of work deserve to get this guy's job at the service provider ? Or, we should increase the H1B counts to replace these people.
Maybe it's good they don't know Juniper. Juniper has not retained 1 penny of earnings and won't be in anybody's core in 10 years. As a CEO/CTO/CIO I read Juniper as risk. They have been around since the mid-90's and not made any money at all! Even through the Internet boom! They have no bright future. How can you expect to make profits by using equipment from a company that doesn't know how to make profits? They are in debt and expect the carriers to save them. Doesn't make sense. Beta was a great technology too, but VHS won. Hey, let's talk about Procket! Why weren't they mentioned by anyone? Oh, they're losers with a poor plan too. Cisco, Foundry, Fujitsu, Hitachi, NEC, and other complet companies will be around long after the deaths of Juniper and Procket. Business is business and Juniper sucks in this aspect. Totally.
Hitachi GR kicks Juniper's butt in IPv6 Internet Core, and they weren't mentioned either. Doesn't mean the folks polled are stupid. It means they are not going to use Hitachi or Juniper in the core for the near future and this is Juniper's entire business plan. At least Hitachi has the loyalty of the Japanese carriers. Why did the president of Juniper Japan and their best SE's take off to Force10 (another sad story)? Juniper has a poor plan and in the end cannot execute (and has not executed). You can still like them though. I know folks that still have their Beta players. Just can't buy a new one.
But wait, maybe we'll have another Internet boom and everybody will be happy? Keep making your snide comments about how only Juniper can do core routing. We call that a paradigm and when you're caught in one, you'll be suprised at what will happen that you don't understand.
Avici has a rather mentally limited VP of Sales. No vision, blames everyone else, living inside a bubble, etc, etc.
They say that's the bottom line, or so they tell me.
My two cents are concerning Juniper;
They have sharp folks and are a great irritant to Cisco.
Full Disclosure: I am not with any of these companies, nor at a competitor. I just have many tentacles of information.
Avici being so low I believe - they don't seem to know how to market (too focused on engineering... haven't learned the cisco lesson). And Alcatel has a core router? Shipping? You're not calling the 7670 a core router are you? The word on the street is the 7770 isn't working. But where is Procket, Caspian, Hyperchip, Chiaro, etc. on the list?
RCMAC operator: Hello?
LR: blah blah "Core Router" blah
RCMAC operator: I'm sorry, there's no USOC for that, etc.
Technician 1: What!!?
LR: blah blah "Core Router" blah
Technician 1: I think you should talk to my shop steward...
Lineman: Ug?
LR: "Core Router!"
Lineman: Black and Decker?
VP of Network: Howdy! How the heck are ya!
LR: blah blah "Core Router" blah
VP of Network: We're currently using a Nortel Passport optical network, etc.
IF the question was something like, "Rank the top 5 core router companies based on name recognition..." And the response was "Cisco, Juniper, Alcatel, Huawei, Avici".
That means people recognise all 5 of these companies. But if you stretch this to mean only 4 out of 5 people know Juniper, or only 1 of 5 know Avici, then you have some serious issue.
Now, if the response was, "What the hell??? I don't freaking know company X is in this space!" Then, you can say people don't know the company.
This smells like one of those surveys that can be easily manipulated depending on the questions.
Starting 1990, there has been huge influx of money from the US and foregn investors. The other companies in the report still do not have carrier grade products. These newcomers had very dishonest VCs and CEOs whose words could not be trusted at any time. Based on deception and lies, these companies targeted carriers and sold them a lot of things that did not work. It is very time consuming to test products from start-ups. In fact Qwest went out of business by testing products from the third rate start-ups mostly operating from california. For example, Ascend Communications cheated big time Lucent. Most of the telecom companies were victimized by start-ups primarily located in California. The RBOCS were led to believe by start-ups that they had products which was well tested and complied with standards. Forexample, Avici supplied core routers to AT&T, but the product did not work for long time. The same deception continued in the area of DWDMs, Mettro Ethernet, edge routers and MSPPs. Many start=ups also fractured the OSS market by not being able to produce which worked.
Almost a decade of deception have destroyed the telecommarket. which is not likely to recover even after 25 years.
But somebody working at service providers does not know Juniper makes core routers ?! BobbyMax, should the Americans who are out of work deserve to get this guy's job at the service provider ? Or, we should increase the H1B counts to replace these people.
"Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics"
quote from either Mark Twain or Benjamin Disraeli (depending on your view of history).
I'm starting to think, from the messages I'm reading, and without seeing this $5000 report, that numbers can be twisted even in Telecom.
"a fish rots from the head"
thats all I need to say
Maybe it's good they don't know Juniper. Juniper has not retained 1 penny of earnings and won't be in anybody's core in 10 years. As a CEO/CTO/CIO I read Juniper as risk. They have been around since the mid-90's and not made any money at all! Even through the Internet boom! They have no bright future. How can you expect to make profits by using equipment from a company that doesn't know how to make profits? They are in debt and expect the carriers to save them. Doesn't make sense. Beta was a great technology too, but VHS won. Hey, let's talk about Procket! Why weren't they mentioned by anyone? Oh, they're losers with a poor plan too. Cisco, Foundry, Fujitsu, Hitachi, NEC, and other complet companies will be around long after the deaths of Juniper and Procket. Business is business and Juniper sucks in this aspect. Totally.
Hitachi GR kicks Juniper's butt in IPv6 Internet Core, and they weren't mentioned either. Doesn't mean the folks polled are stupid. It means they are not going to use Hitachi or Juniper in the core for the near future and this is Juniper's entire business plan. At least Hitachi has the loyalty of the Japanese carriers. Why did the president of Juniper Japan and their best SE's take off to Force10 (another sad story)? Juniper has a poor plan and in the end cannot execute (and has not executed). You can still like them though. I know folks that still have their Beta players. Just can't buy a new one.
But wait, maybe we'll have another Internet boom and everybody will be happy? Keep making your snide comments about how only Juniper can do core routing. We call that a paradigm and when you're caught in one, you'll be suprised at what will happen that you don't understand.
IronCCIE