re: Core Blimey!As a CEO/CTO/CIO I read Juniper as risk. ------------ You rate them as a risk, but your full of praise for NEC, Fujitsu and Hitachi who can't even deliver decent products in the space.
-------- Hitachi GR kicks Juniper's butt in IPv6 Internet Core -------- Except that anyone who has seriously evaluated that "thing" knows that its a science project by a big company and that nobody with any sense considers it a serious core router.
At the time of the test you probably refer to, Hitachi had an "awesome" capacity of 25,000 routes and had problems with throughput of small packets. (Light Reading test 2/2003)
re: Core Blimey!You rate them as a risk, but your full of praise for NEC, Fujitsu and Hitachi who can't even deliver decent products in the space. ----------------------------
Ah, the Japanese can't make good products while our 6' tall double wide refrigerators are superior! Sounds like a paradigm I've heard before from many years ago. And when you compare the size of a T-640 and the power requirements to feed it, actually quite similiar. I may agree with Fujitsu being risky at this point, but NEC/Hitachi make good products and more importantly, good business (the point). Those companies also OEM Cisco/Foundry and others to fill the gaps while they develop their science. It may take Fujitsu some OEM's (Foundry NI40G sounds like a good fit) to get them right to begin with. Fujitsu already makes Foundry's ASIC's:
that this may be a possibility if they can't succeed with their own science project. In the end, the accountants make all decisions and Fujitsu is counting incoming beans while Juniper is spilling the beans.
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Except that anyone who has seriously evaluated that "thing" knows that its a science project by a big company and that nobody with any sense considers it a serious core router.
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Hitachi and NEC make money with their core router products. Japanese carrier market was closed to foreign vendors until the late '90s to help their science projects out. Since Juniper does not make any profits, they sound more like the science project.
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At the time of the test you probably refer to, Hitachi had an "awesome" capacity of 25,000 routes and had problems with throughput of small packets. (Light Reading test 2/2003)
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I believe that the IPv6 Internet didn't have over 25,000 routes in 2/2003 and I'm sure aggregation will keep it well below that for years. The wire-speed performance is what the carriers are after. I think they know how to aggregate routes. And as for small packets, testing IPv6 with 64 byte packets is like testing baseball players for scoring goals in football. You'll see the same odds that 64 byte packets will be on the IPv6 Internet as you will David Beckham playing in the World Series. I believe 82 byte packets would be the starting point if you have any upper layer protocol information.
And Cisco still churns with inflated prices for low quality product that never could forward 64 byte packets at wire-speed with the new Sup720 not even being able to do that daunting task in the lab. Labs are for science projects.
re: Core Blimey!"It used to be that all telecom equipment from very traditional and large size companies. A partial list of suppliers include: Lucent/Bell Labs,Nortel, Stemens, Alcatel, Ericson, Fijitsu, NEC, Tellabs, and few others. These were very well known companies with the most reliable products and technology"
re: Core Blimey!Bobby said: "In fact Qwest went out of business by testing products from the third rate start-ups mostly operating from california. For example, Ascend Communications cheated big time Lucent. Most of the telecom companies were victimized by start-ups primarily located in California. " ======== Oh, well, the big guys were no angel either at the time. Some of them not even hide the intention to "drag it out" until the start up "dried up", so they can get the IP for free (even some test piece... anyone care to list the stuff tested for more than 10 month and kept going on change the performance spec?.... any one care to list the support =detail IP question you have to educate big guys...of course covered by NDA, so you should tell them EVERYTHING). It is like the survivor show on TV. Dirty tricks were played by both sides. Who suffer the most were the investors and hard work R&D engineers. (should we mention all the Gov money went down to the hole as well?).... The waste of financial and human resources is only the richest countries can afford....
re: Core Blimey!Ah, the Japanese can't make good products while our 6' tall double wide refrigerators are superior! Sounds like a paradigm I've heard before from many years ago. And when you compare the size of a T-640 and the power requirements to feed it, actually quite similiar. I may agree with Fujitsu being risky at this point, but NEC/Hitachi make good products and more importantly, good business (the point). -------------- Well, whatever your vast experience with refrigerators, you don't seem to have evaluated routers to the same depth. I know of few (if any) people who take NEC/Hitachi seriously in the router market. Including people within those companies. When they have real products that work, they might be taken seriously but for those of us who look beyond the power number on the data sheet, they are not serious products. --------- Those companies also OEM Cisco/Foundry and others to fill the gaps while they develop their science. It may take Fujitsu some OEM's (Foundry NI40G sounds like a good fit) to get them right to begin with. Fujitsu already makes Foundry's ASIC's: --------------- OEM'ing a second-tier product from foundry and owning an ASIC fab means nothing as far as actual product development goes. ------------- that this may be a possibility if they can't succeed with their own science project. In the end, the accountants make all decisions and Fujitsu is counting incoming beans while Juniper is spilling the beans. ------------- It depends on how you define "Fujitsu". The specific products we are talking about are not making money for Fujitsu and are being subsidized internally by other parts of the business. The losses are essentially covered over. It would as if Juniper were part of IBM or Microsoft or general electric. -------------- Hitachi and NEC make money with their core router products. Japanese carrier market was closed to foreign vendors until the late '90s to help their science projects out. Since Juniper does not make any profits, they sound more like the science project. -------------- Juniper at least has lots of *real* customers gained in *competitive* situations. Contrasted with NEC and Hitachi which have nothing. And the japanese market has been open for a long while now. And I can tell you that most of the major carriers in Japan don't take NEC and Hitachi seriously. They might buy some if told to, but they don't go to them for serious networks. --------- I believe that the IPv6 Internet didn't have over 25,000 routes in 2/2003 and I'm sure aggregation will keep it well below that for years. The wire-speed performance is what the carriers are after. I think they know how to aggregate routes. And as for small packets, testing IPv6 with 64 byte packets is like testing baseball players for scoring goals in football. You'll see the same odds that 64 byte packets will be on the IPv6 Internet as you will David Beckham playing in the World Series. I believe 82 byte packets would be the starting point if you have any upper layer protocol information. -----------------
The truth is that your Hitachi router fell on its face when compared to Juniper. And now, for all the talk of how great they are, you just excuse away their failures and mis-design as irrelivant.
I can tell that more carriers would find your arguments as just trying to rationalize an inferior product created by people who didn't quite know what they were doing. Those kind of arguements get people shown the door more often than not.
And for all your initial talk of Hitachi's superiority over Juniper, you have yet to point out examples of benchmarks where they did better than Juniper.
re: Core Blimey!LR is almost unprofessional here quoting randomly from a survey to build a case, but not providing that information for free to all readers. Basically they can create any kind of story they want from the data and no one can argue with their interpretation unless they pay $5000 for the report. Hard to find examples of this kind of thing -- if you see press on Gartner or Delloro reports it is always based on publicly available material. And it is not clear that the reporter has much experience interpreting market research as she leaps to wild conclusions that may or may not be valid for the reasons other posters cite. Is this audience really a good scientific sample for the market...were the questions framed in unbiased way...we can't tell so LR gets to be judge and jury here. Shameless attempt to sell research vs. good journalism. Why not release the report to other news agencies who might interpret it fairly vs. LR interpreting it only to generate controversy and sell copies...
It is obvious that you have strong connections to Juniper. Perhaps an employee. I must admit that I have strong attachments to two vendors myself (stock holder). Additionally, I have been investing in mutual funds that support a lot of good Asian technology vendors. Anyone thinking the Japanese are going to let too many vendors into the Japan market is a bit skeptic.
The Japanese accepted Extreme Networks whole wheartedly at first, and then were burned by poor quality and hard to maintain systems they got burnt. Extreme was handing out marketing material at the YWCA charity run in Yoyogi park this last Saturday. You can tell that they have reduced to an edge player. Seems Cisco and Foundry are destined to become the accepted vendors here. RiverSTONE is still stuck in a poor business model as is Juniper. Poor business models are usually the Japanese way to show you the door. Extreme Networks has a great business model for Japan and that allowed them to make a HUGE percent of their revenues Worldwide in their glory days of 113Million per quarter. You can trust that w/o the Japan number they would have looked more like RiverSTONE (Number one router in Metro!) here last quarter.
No, the Japanese have spoken. They use Force10 at AIST and they are seriously competing with Foundry, but the BigIon MG8 (as everyone expected) is tearing them up now, and the funny thing is that Foundry released L3 code only for the L2 evaluations. Force10 was backwards, but you have to think, who is more advanced.
I don't want to talk about Foundry running IronCore and how some providers were not able to fix their Internet Core routing problems in the past. We call that a paradigm and anybody who thinks that all of Foundry's Internet Core router problems won't be solved needs to await the report. I'm sure it should include power requirements in the cost per port per year section.
Now when you look at Juniper's position in that light, and know that Cisco is still kicking Juniper and Foundry's butt in the service provider market space (especially in the enterprises who think they are service provider) that is a huge chunk that both companies are making a play at Cisco (well calculated if I might add).
Now we bring in the Japanese companies. NEC rules Docomo, the Japanese Government, the entertainment sector. Relations Foundry has with Mitsui (one of the former Zaibatsu) seem to be a brilliant move calculated by both Mitsui and Foundry. We're not gonna speak about the stinkers from both of these companies (Foundry/Mitsui), but together, they look like perl.
Now Juniper's only way in is through one of the companies that really control the Japanese market, and you can imagine how receptive they are to a company like Juniper that is in debt, in debt, in debt, in debt.
I have always said that I liked Juniper. I just don't own stock. Nobody in the world can convince me that Juniper is not the right solution for Internet Core routing in September 2003 and I agree with you.
Now let's talk about those Japanese vendors again?
It is obvious that you have strong connections to Juniper. Perhaps an employee. --------- 1) Answer the question as put. You were running off your mouth about Hitachi and IPv6. Now you have retreated to throwing out "big words" like Paradigm and business model while gone on-and-on about how great foundry is. Either respond to me on the subject of the last message or don't bother at all.
2) You don't seem to know much about the core router market. You go on-and-on about the bottom-feeder stuff from Foundry and Extreme at the low end of the market. Pardon me, but I'm not impressed that foundry has been able to surpass a junk-merchant in the form of extreme. I dont consider them a serious core or high-end edge platform. They have their niche, but they have never been taken seriously outside of it.
3) You seem to believing in playing favorites and ignoring (or wishing away) reality. As in:
"I don't want to talk about Foundry running IronCore and how some providers were not able to fix their Internet Core routing problems in the past. We call that a paradigm and anybody who thinks that all of Foundry's Internet Core router problems won't be solved needs to await the report. "
You don't want to talk about it because you KNOW the problems. But apparently you want the rest of us to "wish" them away or wait for Foundry to deliver on promises they have been breaking for quite a long while now. Nobody takes them seriously in the core. Even they know better.
4) The japanese market isn't as simple as you think it is. Its very possible to get a good relationship in terms of name-dropping, but unless the partner in japan is serious about it, its meaningless. And you only know how meaningful a partnership is by the deals that come out of it.
5) I've been accused of working for almost every company in the space. I dont play those games. I suggest you either go back to talking about REAL issues in core routers or take your act back to the stock boards on yahoo or wherever you came from.
Isn't your large-enterprise based ccie up for renewal anytime soon? As skeptic said not only are you so far out of tune with core routing you simply are an idiot and are running your mouth about things you not only don't know but saying stuff that is just so far out of truth!
Go read financial reports. Juniper in "debt, debt, debt" as you put it? Please let me be that in debt! They have at last announcements like almost 2B cash. They have the best routing product "core" routing product on the market and that will never change in the foreseeable future.
You talked about people jumping ship to force10. Haha... all I have to say is that Juniper has done one hell of a job keeping eng talent. Who cares about non-producers who blame their companies and then jump ship. It's actually great for Juniper because now force10 has the idiots!
I just hate seeing guys like you posting meaningless, non-sensical stuff. Go read the financials before you run your mouth. I am a stockholder and all I can say is "THANK YOU JUNIPER"!!!!!!!
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You rate them as a risk, but your full of
praise for NEC, Fujitsu and Hitachi who can't
even deliver decent products in the space.
--------
Hitachi GR kicks Juniper's butt in IPv6 Internet Core
--------
Except that anyone who has seriously evaluated
that "thing" knows that its a science project
by a big company and that nobody with any sense
considers it a serious core router.
At the time of the test you probably refer to,
Hitachi had an "awesome" capacity of 25,000
routes and had problems with throughput of
small packets. (Light Reading test 2/2003)