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Huawei in Spying Flap

Light Reading
Supercomm News Analysis
Light Reading
6/24/2004
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A major equipment vendor is accusing a Huawei Technologies Co. Ltd. employee of corporate espionage following an incident that occurred after the Supercomm exhibit floor closed on Wednesday, Light Reading has learned.

Sources close to the situation say the Huawei worker was caught at a competitor's booth where he was examining circuit boards taken from the vendor's displayed gear and taking photographs of the company's products.

Supercomm security was called and the vendor confiscated the Huawei worker's camera Memory Sticks and took photocopies of his passport, visa, and several pages of notes. On the worker's exhibitor badge, the company's name was listed as "Weihua," which a source interpreted as an attempt to obscure his employer. Supercomm management stripped the worker of his credentials and told him to leave the area.

The employee -- a technical engineer named Yi Bin Zhu -- says the incident is a misunderstanding. Zhu spoke to Light Reading through an interpreter on Thursday at Huawei's Supercomm meeting room. He says this is his first time traveling outside of China and he was not aware that photography was prohibited on the Supercomm show floor.

Zhu says the incorrectly listed name on his exhibitor badge was also a misunderstanding. He says the Chinese custom of listing surnames first caused him to fill out his show paperwork incorrectly, resulting in the mangled name.

But there was plenty more to explain. Zhu's notes contained two pages of proprietary diagrams of an AT&T Corp. (NYSE: T) central office, a source familiar with the documents says. Also in his possession was a list of several vendors he had either visited or was about to visit, the source says.

The vendors on Zhu's list included Ciena Corp. (Nasdaq: CIEN), Lucent Technologies Inc. (NYSE: LU), Tellabs Inc. (Nasdaq: TLAB; Frankfurt: BTLA), "Nothtel," Fujitsu Network Communications Inc. (FNC), White Rock Networks Inc., and Turin Networks Inc. Two specific products were singled-out in the list: FNC's Flashwave 4300 and Nortel's Optical Multiservice Edge 6500.

The contents of Zhu's Memory Sticks included photographs of the FNC 4300, with its casing removed, as well as some video clips of various company Supercomm presentations that were taken from what one source calls "surreptitious angles."

Zhu says his notes were just a guide to the vendors he was interested in. He denied pulling out any vendor's circuit boards to have a closer look.

David Swanston, Supercomm's director of communications, says that with more and more sophisticated devices, unauthorized photography is difficult to stop. "You can't prevent all of it," he says. "But we will prevent all we can."

At least two vendors on Zhu's list, upon being contacted by Light Reading on Thursday, say they're looking into what legal options are available.

In the past, Huawei has been accused of stealing intellectual property from Cisco Systems Inc. (Nasdaq: CSCO). Huawei's own investigation found that rogue developers were at fault, concluding that the incident was isolated (see Cisco & Huawei Extend Stay). — Phil Harvey, News Editor, and Peter Heywood, Founding Editor, Light Reading; and Ray Le Maistre, International Editor, Boardwatch

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got_light
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got_light,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:28:35 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
I think the poll appears to be incomplete. Mot only did I feel like taking the poll because of the contents, I also feel that it looks like justifying Espionage by giving inadequate statistics. I bet Huawei wold be pretty happy to see the poll results. What a waste of time LR is doing to cheer Huawei!
heads-up
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heads-up,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:28:40 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Abby Wrote:

It is the account teamG«÷s responsibility to find this out and work with the powers that be in corporate to package the deal and improve customer satisfaction.
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Nothing wrong here. My point is, too much of
someone else's investment portfolio, in dollars,
in going into an activity (reverse engineering),
just to figure out how the box works. This takes
valuable time away from creating and innovating
new products. I'm starting to wonder if this
has been the driving force behind the meltdown
in the Valley. Maybe its time for me to take a
more Heads-Up approach and steal time away from
my ICE, wires, bus-analyzers, and understand
what's going on. BTW, from you've indicated, I
think maybe customers coulb be part of the blame.

heads-up
sigint
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sigint,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:28:42 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Good points stephencooke,

I might add here that many a times, customers, especially alpha customers, would take your box apart to estimate BOM costs. that would give them a number to work with during price negotiations.

sigint
whyiswhy
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whyiswhy,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:28:44 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Abby sez:

"Just like a good parent knows they don't have the luxury to pick and choose when they want to be a parent, the entities that make up the most powerful economy in the world know they don't have the luxury to pick and choose when to be a global leader, either. It's a matter of responsibility."

You know, I am by far the wealthiest person in my neighborhood...I think the neighbor that never mows his lawn, and never waves to me in the morning deserves removal. His wife is too good looking for him. Just a quick bump off, and his wife and house are mine.

It's my responsibility to keep the neighborhood clean. Of course, I'll take responsibility for his house and wife after the deed. is done. It's my duty. Can't leave the lawn un-mowed, or the poor widow lonely.

-Why

Abby
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Abby,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:28:47 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Stephen:

DonG«÷t misunderstand me that this applies to every situation, but here is my experience with the items on your list:

- full feature list and price points

A full feature list can be useful as a checklist, but can also be disruptive, i.e. chasing the competition instead of meeting the customerG«÷s real requirements. Price points can be useful , but often encourage price sensitivity is the sales organization that eats away at a large % the companyG«÷s margin. IG«÷ve seen price quotes at negative and less than 5% margin. Who really wins? How do you justify paying the commission, if the company isnG«÷t going to make money on it is the real question that G«£shouldG«• be answered.

- customer list

How you obtain a customer list can get your company sued, at least here in the U.S.

- who they have relationships with inside each customer

This can be beneficial. Ever here the story about the sales guy that bashed a competitor to a client who was a new VP that came from a company that was a big implementer of the competition? Big mistake!

- what is their feature roll-out plan with timescales

How you obtain a feature roll-out plan can get your company sued, at least here in the U.S. More importantly, sometimes features are customer specific and have no value beyond that customer. Or niche in market where your product doesnG«÷t fit. Or hype and never really take off. IG«÷m not saying they are useless, but they can be very dangerous if misunderstood.

- what is customer perception of quality vs. price (obtained from someone other than the customer purchasing contact who is trying to leverage you on price)
- difficulties that they have had and their response time, customer perception of same
- customer decision-making criteria that got them in over someone else

It is the account teamG«÷s responsibility to find this out and work with the powers that be in corporate to package the deal and improve customer satisfaction.

stephenpcooke
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stephenpcooke,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:28:47 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Hi Abby,

I understand your A vs. B scenario. The problem in the current market with this is that most hardware is outsourced to thrid party manufacturers (ie: the manufacturing processes, etc. are all available for a price to all comers). To get an idea of the costs involved might be valid but that also depends on the gate count/yield of the ASICs, the complexity of the software, the feature content, etc. all of which are very difficult to discern from looking at the hardware.

I would suggest that more valuable competitive intelligence would include things like:
- full feature list and price points
- customer list
- who they have relationships with inside each customer
- what is their feature roll-out plan with timescales
- what is customer perception of quality vs. price (obtained from someone other than the customer purchasing contact who is trying to leverage you on price)
- difficulties that they have had and their response time, customer perception of same
- customer decision-making criteria that got them in over someone else
- etc.

On the corporate side I would suggest that each of these is more useful.
stephenpcooke
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stephenpcooke,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:28:47 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
A few comments on reverse engineering...

The best way to get to market is to innovate your own stuff. There are many reasons for this including personal drive to take your very own product to market (ie: you have pride and a sense of ownership). You are more likely to make sure that as many of the bugs get fixed as possible, in short, you will go that extra mile, usually without the need of having your manager ask you to.

There is a serious time factor involved to even consider reverse engineering. Basically you have to re-engineer a product that had some latent flaws. It takes time even to re-build hardware, that is totally ignoring the software development effort. You might be able to get the non-custom part placement right on the board, you might be able to get the track thickness right on the back- (or mid-) plane, you may even be smart or lucky enough to figure out what the registers do on the custom parts, but writing the code to run the box is totally out there.

The bottom line here is that no matter how cheaply you can make a product, if it doesn't work no one will buy it from you. Those who made the box in the first place know it inside and out and have made corrections along the way to mistakes, etc. If you copy the design you will have an incredibly hard time getting it right and you have no hope on the quality side because you will just not have the 'feel' of the product.

When I was a designer at Nortel many years ago we had a Lucent OC12 box in the lab at one point. Did we take it apart? No. Did we have the expertise to reverse engineer it? Probably. Did we try to figure out how it worked? No. We really didn't look at it much. If anything we may have done some interop testing with it but I didn't even see anyone doing that, we just didn't have the manpower or the time.

If reverse engineering is the only option that you've got, good luck. In this industry you have already lost. The better approach is to buy the company and have them help you integrate the product into your corporate strategy.
Abby
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Abby,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:28:48 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
heads_up said:

I'm having trouble understanding why reverse engineering is considered an appropriate method
for being competitive. Maybe I'm a bit old- fashioned; but, I would take better pride in myself if I were to come up with an idea with some potential market promise, rather then wasting my time trying to undo someone else's work. I mean why? Hence, there's has to be a budget for all this reverse engineering to take place. Right? What a waste of money.

-------------------

Going back to what I said, G«£reverse engineering, considered an appropriate tool for competitive intelligence, may yield important competitive intelligence information about a competitorG«÷s quality and costs,G«• IG«÷ll try to explain the rational of why itG«÷s considered appropriate.

Consider the case of auto manufacturer A and B where A sells passenger cars that are less durable in extreme cold or hot climate while and B sell luxury cars that are more durable under these conditions. Through reverse engineering A can learn from B the type of paint composition required for improve the durability of its passenger cars. Hence, A can now build passenger cars with better durability to satisfy the needs of customers in the passenger car price range. Likewise, although B sells luxury cars, B would like to sell a low-end luxury car for consumers who are price sensitive to its luxury line. Through reverse engineering of AG«÷s cars, B can learn a lot about where it can lower its costs to build the low-end luxury car to satisfy the needs of customers that would buy a luxury car at a lower price.

Competitive intelligence offers these kinds of benefits which help consumers get better products that meet their needs. The problem arises when itG«÷s abused like patent infringement because the originator of the idea is not being compensated for its creativity or innovation. Another problem that arises is that competitive intelligence is often misunderstood as to why the company is doing it. As a result, it gets to the point that it literally cripples a corporation. For instance, the company gets so caught up in the competition (what they are doing or what they have that it doesnG«÷t) that typically they get defocused and lose sight of the real value of their product and company and what they have to offer.
heads-up
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heads-up,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:28:48 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
This is just my two cents. Crack the books,
examine other people's code (nothing wrong with
that) and walk away learning something. But
refrain from plagiarizing or copying material.
I told you I was old-fashioned.
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Yes. You are indeed old fashioned. This attitude may work in academia, but it does not apply to the business domain. Its a dog-eat-dog world out there, winner take all. A competitor which can offer the same product at a lower cost will always win in the end, provided the law doesnt impede their success.

Huawei is doing its part to get to the top of the router world. Lets at least give them credit for that.
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So much for creativity and innovation.

Sad

heads-up
heads-up
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heads-up,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:28:49 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Abby Wrote:

What many will do in a grocery store, like taste the fruit to see if itG«÷s ripe or read magazines without buying them, defies the laws of morality too, but they still do it. As for this guy from Huawei, the issue of whether his conduct was immoral or not is between him, his management, and the other parties involved. I personally, donG«÷t think the rest of us are in a position to cast stones since none of us are witnesses or have all the information.
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Okay, so someone in Grocery Store sampled a piece
of fruit, pastry, or other consumable items. So,
if you see it, make sure you tell someone who
works at that particular store about it. Don't
take a bind-eye approach. If you see and feel
this is wrong, then alert a store manager.

As for the part on casting stones, there are a
many good engineers out there, who sweat, push,
and do what it takes to innovate, create, and
make a product happen. Those who have achieved
this level of work, have earned the right to
criticize. Yeh, I'm old-fashioned.

heads-up
heads-up
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heads-up,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:28:49 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
tonyvong wrote:

This stupid f*ck makes all the chinese look bad and stupid.
-----------------------------------------------
No, it doesn't make all Chinese and/or Indian
look bad or incapable of innovating.

heads-up

networking_legend
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networking_legend,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:28:49 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
This is just my two cents. Crack the books,
examine other people's code (nothing wrong with
that) and walk away learning something. But
refrain from plagiarizing or copying material.
I told you I was old-fashioned.


Yes. You are indeed old fashioned. This attitude may work in academia, but it does not apply to the business domain. Its a dog-eat-dog world out there, winner take all. A competitor which can offer the same product at a lower cost will always win in the end, provided the law doesnt impede their success.

Huawei is doing its part to get to the top of the router world. Lets at least give them credit for that.
heads-up
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heads-up,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:28:50 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Abby Wrote:

Competitive intelligence is a natural part of doing business. Without it, a company will not be in business for very long. Competitive intelligence helps a company do a better job of positioning, pricing, and distributing its product. Additionally, it helps a company develop alternative competitive scenarios, structure attack plans, and evaluate potential competitive moves. In fact, reverse engineering, considered an appropriate tool for competitive intelligence, may yield important competitive intelligence information about a competitorG«÷s quality and costs.
----------------------------------------------

I'm having trouble understanding why reverse
engineerng is considered an appropriate method
for being competitive. Maybe I'm a bit old-
fashioned; but, I would take better pride in
myself if I were to come up with an idea with
some potential market promise, rather then wasting my time trying to undo someone else's
work. I mean why? Hence, there's has to be
a budget for all this reverse engineering to
take place. Right? What a waste of money.

As I've indicated, I'm a bit old-fashioned -
do your own research, develop ideas, understand
your target market, and develop it. In short,
DO YOUR OWN DAMN WORK.

Now, there has to be some source to all of this
so-called Competitive Intelligence - and, I'm
sure, those of us who've attended graduate
school for our advanced engineering studies,
would agree, how much we've witnessed this dirty
word called Plagiarism, in academia.

This is just my two cents. Crack the books,
examine other people's code (nothing wrong with
that) and walk away learning something. But
refrain from plagiarizing or copying material.
I told you I was old-fashioned.

heads-up
heads-up
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heads-up,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:28:50 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Photon_Got_Mad Wrote:

"Talking about thief, you must be really proud the stealing of Native America's land, Iraq's oil..."

Cheap comeback. I'm sure one can do better
then this.

heads-up
Abby
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Abby,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:28:55 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Why said:

Who are we to be a global leader? I mean nobody elected us, and the Chinese certainly do not pay taxes in the US. We owe them nothing.

Just like a good parent knows they don't have the luxury to pick and choose when they want to be a parent, the entities that make up the most powerful economy in the world know they don't have the luxury to pick and choose when to be a global leader, either. It's a matter of responsibility.
whyiswhy
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whyiswhy,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:28:56 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Abby said:

"So, who are we to boot them out of participating in the global economy because they havenG«÷t come up to speed with the etiquette of our corporate practices? Just maybe, if we took the time to be a real global leader through the diplomacy of sound guidance that is sensitive to their peopleG«÷s needs instead of always focusing on market and industry dominance, the corporations in China could succeed. Because, if they donG«÷t, it will only be a matter of time before weG«÷re seen as the bad guys just trying to exploit the countryG«÷s local competitive advantages for our own selfish needs."

Who are we to be a global leader? I mean nobody elected us, and the Chinese certainly do not pay taxes in the US. We owe them nothing. Problem is, we do literally owe them a lot due to imbalance of trade. The people on either side do not benefit from that trade, the corporations and bankers do.

-Why
st0
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st0,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:28:57 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
52% said:Learn the types of merchant chips they're using...
====
problem identified... if you use COTS chips, you are risk to be "me too" ... get ready for dog fight! (easy to copy... why not make it unique? may be stack few FPGA with unique c.c.t?)...ASIC is difficult to copy, unless it is inside job ... keep your core personnel and make sure you treat them like treasure rather than shit...

-st
Abby
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Abby,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:28:58 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
>>And to get it back to the topic of IP in China: for the US to tolerate Huawei is to condone lawless behavior. You arte right, the politicians should do something. But they are too stupid, and maybe Huawei is funneling money to them. Cisco is going to have to kick their ass out of the US via the courts. Which they have started to do.

HuaweiG«÷s conduct is not exclusive. In fact, ChinaG«÷s government is struggling with these kinds problems in many of their corporations, but the real question is why? For one thing, you are talking about a culture of people who are being pushed to radically change their lifestyle to accommodate the 21st century economics of advanced nations. That canG«÷t be very easy. So, who are we to boot them out of participating in the global economy because they havenG«÷t come up to speed with the etiquette of our corporate practices? Just maybe, if we took the time to be a real global leader through the diplomacy of sound guidance that is sensitive to their peopleG«÷s needs instead of always focusing on market and industry dominance, the corporations in China could succeed. Because, if they donG«÷t, it will only be a matter of time before weG«÷re seen as the bad guys just trying to exploit the countryG«÷s local competitive advantages for our own selfish needs.
whyiswhy
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whyiswhy,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:28:59 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
ST, the issue is politicians do what is good for them, not for you or I or society. Same with corporations. If the politicians can quietly allow HP, Sun, Cisco, etc to export jobs, they will quietly let the bankers leave the Yuan to Dollar exchange rate where it unfairly is.

They are getting donations and in some cases direct deposits into their personal "trust" accounts from these same corporations and/or wealthy criminals (Ken Lay is the biggest individual contributor to GW Bush). They know exactly where the biggest chunk of their money comes from!

The ONLY, I repeat ONLY way to fight this is POLITICAL ACTION. In other words, standing up on a soap box like this board and SHOUTING the TRUTH and INJUSTICE. So far, they haven't been able to take away our soap boxes. And we still get to elect them ever four years or so.

Maybe an analogy: if you go to sleep at the steering wheel of your car on the freeway, what happens? Good stuff? The public tends to go to sleep on the topic of politics. I mean who understands why international banking arbitrage screws people, except for people who have the patience to listen?

Here's China going into debt faster than another other country on earth. Their economy may collapse. They ceratinly will be paying back the international bankers for a very very long time. Think that is good?

How about the US: best economy in the world, no jobs. Also not a great social safety net, compared to Europe. Who gets rich: the corporate officers, the bankers and the politicians. Get it?

Get active in politics and SHOUT about injustice and corruption. If you don't shout loud and often, and vote out criminal behavior quickly, the politicians take away your right to shout. Then they take away your right to vote.

And to get it back to the topic of IP in China: for the US to tolerate Huawei is to condone lawless behavior. You arte right, the politicians should do something. But they are too stupid, and maybe Huawei is funneling money to them. Cisco is going to have to kick their ass out of the US via the courts. Which they have started to do.

-Why
owave
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owave,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:02 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Question 5 is ambiguous: "Does your company legitimately purchase competing products in order to dissect them?" So if my company does not do any competitive testing I answer no, and if we do competitive testing but not legitinate means then I answer no. And by legitimate, does buying their stuff off of ebay count?
Peter Heywood
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Peter Heywood,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:06 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Find out whether other folk take the same view as you:

http://www.lightreading.com/em...
st0
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st0,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:07 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
why,
you out of your mind... did you read my early post that I am as much of victim as you guys for the Asia stealing... I just try to get even using my know how instead of bitching about it... I guess you guys can talk about it until the cow go home without solving any problem. Get real, get into the tech fight and win. (make sure your company keep the state of the art technology in north america instead of transfer to the subcom...otherwise, we fighting a lost war on this...funny they put ban on export apple computer, but not the latest equipments MFG facility to Asia...someone is not thinking with logic... silly politician)...

-st
whyiswhy
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whyiswhy,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:08 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
st:

You are a naive idiot, but I say that with all due respect.

The "protect your IP with advances" GUARANTEES the big companies in the world will ALWAYS win. There is no protection for small companies or individuals with advanced technology in that model. If you think that will result in a good world to live in, you better think again.

But hey, I understand that if the alternatives in your universe are starve, live in a slave camp, or work for Weihua, that you can probably work your way up to an accomodating position. It's natural to make yourself believe the life you have in the society you live in is good. It probably is in a historical sense for people in China. Better than being a peasant farmer these days, isn't it?

But dude, working for the "man" is a losing proposition. It's called being a wage slave. We in the West figured that out a long time ago...you in China have a ways to go.

-Why
st0
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st0,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:22 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
seven,
you can beat the dead horse, and mad like hell..(believe me, went through that emotional drama) or you can accept the reality and prevent it... AMD and Intel is a good example. Intel got brand name on its side, and you just have to play the catching game. You can make it harder for your competitor to catching up... as long as you are one step ahead of the game,you should be fine. In order to e-beam and doing voltage contrast, you will need de-cap, why not make it harder either in package or ESD extra sensitive....etc, etc,

the best way is utilize the new technology ... know your competitor... if they are in the old generation IC MFG, I can't see them to copy your new generation device (130 nm v.s 90 nm for example)...RECOVER YOUR developing cost ASAP is the key... at introduction stage, your "customer/competitor" will pay anything to get your goods...willingness to charge more (marketing guy is going to tell you "price is not competitive") within the 1st 6 month and recover cost is the key.... We live in the real world, even you patent it, someone is going to improve it and make new patent out of it.... you can only lead for so long, unless it is ground breaking stuff. Don't get mad, get even...

good luck... buy more competitor stuff should do Cisco a lot of good ... possibly start with Tony's (89 million is a good start...hahaha).

One thing to watch for: all the MFG went to asia control. Nortel just sold their MFG to singapore... Next gen product may very much come from Asia soon (where the capex by north american corp increased a lot.... how many co. invested new plant in US? China? which one has new equipments? that is really worry some... Can't see that, is really a start of down fall... )

-st
paolo.franzoi
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paolo.franzoi,
User Rank: Light Sabre
12/5/2012 | 1:29:24 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap

Sorry, but buying another's product and studying it is not the same as e-beam reading an ASIC and taking that ASIC into production.

Even if they are patented, it does not matter in Asia.

What product did Cisco copy?

Even copying the Cisco CLI format, you had engineers writing code for your product. You saved time on specsmanship. Direct copying (aka Chinese copying) is done without a full engineering staff so products can be sold at a much lower price.

If you can not see that difference, then you should stop and think again.

seven
Balet
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Balet,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:24 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Make love, not war

Any war is bad, even a war for your ideals.

Speaking from my own experience
st0
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st0,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:26 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
seven,
you call it reverse engineer or market research is up to you. it is just study your competitor's product, not copying it. If your product is not patented, but do not want someone to copy, you have to protect yourself either by cleaver design (self distructive) or treated as trade secret. Most of the stuff are not patentable (common knowledge or fall into "knowhow" class, it is as important as patentable if it is not more so)....I fall into victim of stealing (or re-use) IC by Asia, so don't tell me how important it is to prevent copying or otherwise... you just have to find the way to prevent it. Reverse engineer is more less acceptable. Don't tell me Cisco never done it and everything is "home grow"...hahaha, that's funny.

www.daviddfriendman.com/Academ...

-st
st0
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st0,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:27 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
you call it reverse engineer or market research, it is the same
turing
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turing,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:28 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Kerry is a Senator, not a Congressman. The way the Senate works is through compromise, usually by voting no and then yes once a compromise is reached you can live with (or trade for other bills/issues) - especially at a time when the Senate is so evenly divided. Otherwise nothing would pass the Senate and Kerry would be accused of stalling or obstructing.
freetrader
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freetrader,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:29 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Kerry voted for the Iraq war
Voted for the Patriots Act
Voted for NAFTA
Voted for Welfare reform
Voted for the tac cuts
Voted for choice in public schools

As President he would do the opposite (or so he claims)

Rather have a philosphically consistent President (Edward Kennedy, Ralph Nader Dick Gephardt etc) rather than yet another opportunist

PotatoChips
50%
50%
PotatoChips,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:31 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Huh... That's a relief. So what you are saying is that this debt/GDP ratio is manageable (at least Japan did it, dude.) even if your number were right. I had impression from your previous messages that China's economy is doomed to crash because of this 100% debt/GDP ratio you have claimed.

"Actually, the correct numnber is more like 40-50%, but due to book keeping irregulatities, and very high bad debt (50%), most bankers round it off to 100%. Don't feel too bad, Japan is at 140% on the books, and probably 200% for the same (un-recognized bad debt) reason."
yesteryear
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50%
yesteryear,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:34 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Oh, actually, I exaggerated again... there actually is at least one decorated war hero in the government who is NOT a general and has earned the right to criticise Kerry's war record... and that would be the distinguished Republican Senator from Arizona, John McCain... Oh wait... but McCain and Kerry are good friends and McCain has said he has great admiration for Kerry and his service to his country... That's right... McCain's not part of the Dick Cheney Duck Hunting Club... Damn.

Look, try to put 2 and 2 together and come up with something other than 22. This is obviously too hard to figure out on your own, and I know I won't be able to change your mind... so, seriously... I'd highly recommend going out and finding someone you trust who has an IQ greater than say, oh, about 120 or so, and ask them to help you out. The facts are all there. You just need to look at them.

Open your eyes. Wake up.

-yesteryear
yesteryear
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50%
yesteryear,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:36 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
capers said:
"4 months in country. 3 purple hearts, a bronze star and a silver star. Sounds too good to be true doesn't it.

why 3 purple hearts....that's the number you need to get out.

who nominated him for all three ....john kerry

why was he in the navy on swift boats...because JFK did roughly the same thing.

His military service was a set up and he's afraid to be called on it.

and no I haven't service but two of my brother's have one in DS1 and one in afghani"


Stunned again... You are one piece of work. This is just plain despicable. He went overseas. He served. He put his life on the line for idealist goals (i.e. - for freedom, country, whatever... whether he became disenchanted after discovering the truth doesn't matter. He went in the first place. That is undeniable.)

If you want to pick up on a warning sign (which I don't really think you do) ask your two brothers about the friendships forged on a battlefield. Those last a lifetime and are never forgotten. There are WWII vets who after all these decades remember strangers from across the country brought together in an impossible situation and became life-long friends.

Kerry at least has those friends. They remember him there. Some thank him for his actions and claim he saved their lives. Dubya cannot bring up even a single person who remembers training side by side with him at the Texas Air National Guard. His own Commanding Officer doesn't even remember him being there much. Think about that.

You can say a lot of things about Kerry, but to even think about critiquing his war record is just incredible. There are VERY few people in government who've earned the right to criticise his record, and they are all generals... Dodging the draft by going over there and getting shot at... that's a new one... but I guess all Democrats are draft-dodgers and peace-niks by definition, so Kerry must be too. If Dubya simply keeps repeating that in speeches, the ignorant masses will start believing it... just like the fact that Saddam Hussein was responsible for 9/11.

I just hope that Kerry picks someone like Clark for a running mate. Then Clark could really come at both of the cowards on the Republican ticket with full force, and they wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

Open your eyes. Wake up. On this subject and a great many other things.

Just for the record, I am voting, but I'm not voting for neither Dubya nor Kerry... and probably to some people's surprise, I'm not voting for Nader either...

-yesteryear
startup_shutup
50%
50%
startup_shutup,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:36 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Economics pointer:

To understand telecom, dot.com and housing
bubble backed by financial derivatives go through
these papers:

http://larouchein2004.net/pdfs...
paolo.franzoi
50%
50%
paolo.franzoi,
User Rank: Light Sabre
12/5/2012 | 1:29:37 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap

st,

Please show us with a link the reverse engineered products in the US market in the Telecom space. It is commonplace to adopt say the CISCO CLI as a common format. It is not commonplace to download the flash into a a computer duplicate it completely and plug it into your product. It is commonplace to buy study other products for cost and other issues. It is not commonplace to replicate a product so exactly that your boards can be placed in another companies system and have it work (there are exceptions - and those generally they have involved licenses).

Your right this is common practice in China to completely copy other products. If you think the process is the same in other places, you are wrong.

seven
btierney
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btierney,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:38 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
4 months in country. 3 purple hearts, a bronze star and a silver star. Sounds too good to be true doesn't it.

why 3 purple hearts....that's the number you need to get out.

who nominated him for all three ....john kerry

why was he in the navy on swift boats...because JFK did roughly the same thing.

His military service was a set up and he's afraid to be called on it.

and no I haven't service but two of my brother's have one in DS1 and one in afghani
seeker
50%
50%
seeker,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:39 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Main Entry: hu.wei
Pronunciation: 'h++-'wei
Function: noun
: a thief; often used to refer to a dumb thief.
whyiswhy
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50%
whyiswhy,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:39 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Actually, the correct numnber is more like 40-50%, but due to book keeping irregulatities, and very high bad debt (50%), most bankers round it off to 100%. Don't feel too bad, Japan is at 140% on the books, and probably 200% for the same (un-recognized bad debt) reason.

-Why
zher
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zher,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:39 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
ksig25 is such a funny guy and making no sense. Who do you think you are, are you worth of a GSR? LOL
st0
50%
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st0,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:40 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
"Given that our product is ASIC based, that means that our ASICs were copied as well."
=======
(1) reverse engineer is common in the industry. it is stupid if you don't see it everywhere... (regardless which country).
(2) to claim tech lead and prepare dog fight in price should be in the program.... recover the cost prior to the competitor get into the market is the key (marketing normally don't see that...it cut into their bonus...)
(3) capable of dog fight at 0.5 price after you recovered cost will get rid of your competitor (think about capital equipments cost for example... if your device need 90 nm capability, I am sure it is difficult to copy).
(4) Design for "prevent reverse engineering"... saw many self distructive parts before.... it is cost extra, but money well spent (marketing normally wouldn't see any benefit)...
(5) put a techie on program mangement instead of MBA, you may get longer product life (a bit pricy... )...before your competitor get it..
(6) it is cat and mouse game... the current test instrument is getting better to reverse engineer (see the operation function without decap the parts.. is almost there)...

-st
PotatoChips
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PotatoChips,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:40 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
I do think you are paranoia because you told people on the board just based on what you assume and believe, absolutely not facts. According to Worldbank, China's total debt/GDP is ~13% not as you have claimed, 'unfortunately'.

"Paranoia or facing facts, COGS?

Are you saying the fixed 8.2:1 Yuan to Dollar exchange rate is not the core of the problem?

Are you saying you are not a bit worried that the Chinese national debt is 100% of their GDP?"
whyiswhy
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whyiswhy,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:41 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Let me guess your calculus:

1) 5,000 Kurds balances 20,000 Shiites and Sunis we ourselves have slaughtered,
2) You can look into the face of the mother and father who sent their only son or daughter over there and tell them his/her death was well worth it: they can drive their SUV to his/her funeral
3) GDub really did serve his time in the National Guard,
4) GDub didn't order the "outing" of the CIA field agent, and his hiring of a private attorney is just an accident.

-Why
Abby
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Abby,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:41 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
>> Above board, everyone would encourage you to avoid even the appearance of impropriety. If you don't get this, I feel bad for your employer whether he's unscrupulous or not.

-yesteryear,

Thank you for your comments. They were refreshing. However, what confuses me is your empathy for my employer whether heG«÷s unscrupulous or not because, at the end of the day, staying above the fray canG«÷t even protect someoneG«÷s livelihood in that kind of position. BTW, I donG«÷t do that kind of work anymore. Furthermore, IMHO, there are greater losses in avoiding the discussion because a new science is emerging that inevitably will be overlooked by those who donG«÷t re-evaluate past their strategies.
paolo.franzoi
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paolo.franzoi,
User Rank: Light Sabre
12/5/2012 | 1:29:41 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap

I work for a company that had product completely copied by Chinese companies. We were selling our product, and then suddenly plug compatible product was suddenly available. Given that our product is ASIC based, that means that our ASICs were copied as well.

That form of behavior does NOT exist in the United States. I would require more than a post saying that it does. I would require pointers to the two products (the original and the copied) to agree that it does. I do not doubt that competitors study each others products, but avoiding the engineering effort is something different.

Now my firm can exclude these clone manufacturers from selling the products in the United States (or even having them at Supercomm as they were last year). These products are still for sale in China and there is simply no legal recourse.

seven
yesteryear
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50%
yesteryear,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:43 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
turing said:
"If Huawei were better at marketing, they would have immediately denounced the act, fired the guy, and instituted some corporate ethics program - at least in the press. Whether they really do such a thing does not matter, but the perception matters. Any freshman PR person would tell them this. Turn lemon into lemonade, as they say."

EXACTLY. Very well put and much more succinct than my response.

-yesteryear
BerkeleyWolf
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BerkeleyWolf,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:43 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
I certainly can tell someone is a american by the way he/she talks and the way he/she dresses
turing
50%
50%
turing,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:43 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
> If you go back and re-read what Ksig25 wrote,
> he was talking about illegal.

Yup, you're right - he was, I wasn't. Not sure why he's tying it to law. I would think it would be fairly ambiguous in this case.
turing
50%
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turing,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:44 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Not to defend Kisg25, but the point here is not that other people don't also do questionable things - the point is that that is not a defense/justification of the act.

Unfortunately this event is getting tied to Chinese behavior, which is completely moronoic to suggest - bad and stupid people exist in every country, culture, and company.

If Huawei were better at marketing, they would have immediately denounced the act, fired the guy, and instituted some corporate ethics program - at least in the press. Whether they really do such a thing does not matter, but the perception matters. Any freshman PR person would tell them this. Turn lemon into lemonade, as they say.
tonyvong
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50%
tonyvong,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:44 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
mainland chinese by the way they talk and the way they dress.
yesteryear
50%
50%
yesteryear,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:44 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Abby said:
"No, Kisg25, you are the one that is not getting it. I use to do competitive analysis and, unfortunately, what happens G«£alwaysG«• goes beyond what they hired you to do. Individuals in your company may not be doing exactly what he did, but IG«÷ll bet bottom dollar they are doing other things that are just as dubious and reckless.
Whether he is arrested or not, it up to the law enforcement people, but youG«÷ll never convince me that your company or any other one is morally above any scrutiny."

Abby, you just said it yourself... it was "dubious and reckless." Competitive analysis and reverse engineering is part of doing business and learning. In the ASIC world, we've even gone so far as to slice off the top of chips and poured HF all over it to dissolve the metal layers to see what's underneath. That sounds extreme but it's pretty instructive... but we bought the parts and never signed anything saying we wouldn't look under the hood. The amount of information you can get by just looking at chips used or simply structures is amazing. I remember one manager in my past fighting tooth and nail to stop higher level management from bringing a chip plot to a show WITHOUT any labeled structures... they thought there was no harm in it, but for a sufficiently new piece of technology, even just seeing what structures and how much area they take reveals an amazing about of information. Now if we USED that info, and it was protected by copyright or patents, that would be a problem... breaking into a piece of equipment where the assumption was that it was in an adequately secure place is at best "dubious and reckless."

I don't think there's a company out there where if you interviewed for a "competitive analysis" position and you made this view above of yours clear, that they would touch you with a ten foot pole... even if the company itself is so morally bankrupt that they would condone and encourage your doing these "above and beyond the call of duty"-type acts. It would be far too risky for them to admit it. You know... you'd be dismissed as a "loose cannon." Above board, everyone would encourage you to avoid even the appearance of impropriety. If you don't get this, I feel bad for your employer whether he's unscrupulous or not.

Also please don't misinterpret this as a "holier than thou" attitude. I have no doubt there are people that cross lines... in my company and in others... but at some point when it comes to light, that person and the people connected to it who don't have plausible deniability simply get sacked. At risk of going completely overboard with the trite sayings I know you've all heard... ultimately, "The path to hell is paved with good intentions."

You can do all these things you think are good for your company like a good little soldier like Ollie North... but in the end, people will walk away from you fast when/if you're caught. You're thrown to the lions, you're the fall guy and all that.

-yesteryear
Abby
50%
50%
Abby,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:45 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
No, Kisg25, you are the one that is not getting it. I use to do competitive analysis and, unfortunately, what happens G«£alwaysG«• goes beyond what they hired you to do. Individuals in your company may not be doing exactly what he did, but IG«÷ll bet bottom dollar they are doing other things that are just as dubious and reckless.
Whether he is arrested or not, it up to the law enforcement people, but youG«÷ll never convince me that your company or any other one is morally above any scrutiny.
tonyvong
50%
50%
tonyvong,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:45 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
called spies! Believe it or not ... It makes them feel that people think they are really catching up the western world. How stupid can that be !
tonyvong
50%
50%
tonyvong,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:45 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
really gain much by looking at circuit board. Only stupid people believe that they can gain anyting from a picture of the circuit board.
tonyvong
50%
50%
tonyvong,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:45 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
This stupid f*ck makes all the chinese look bad and stupid.
watcher10
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50%
watcher10,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:45 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
3. John kerry is a war hero

John Kerry volunteered and served his country
in vietnam under fire. While you can disagree
with his views on the vietnam after, it takes
a real piece of work to attack someone who did
the right thing and served his country in a
shooting war. Especially given that so many
of his generation and class, both democrats and
republicans, had no respect for military service
or those who had served.

I suggest you stop and think about what your
doing. Have some respect for the uniform and
for someone who actually put himself in harms
way for you and this country.


ksig25
50%
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ksig25,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:46 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Your not getting it Abby......what happened went beyond competitive intelligence.

I will bet you dollars to donuts that my company does not send people into trade shows with fake credentials, have them sneak into booths after hours and without permission, and then take equipment off racks, open them up, and take pictures. That is illegal (yes, I'm calling it that) and this guy is going to be arrested for what he did. Like I said earlier, this is a bit beyond the standard arrest that beat cops make....but once this is straitened out, that guy is getting arrested and charged.

ksig25
Abby
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50%
Abby,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:48 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
>> This could have been an employee from another large company (like Cisco) and it would still be just as wrong and news-worthy.

We each have our own perspective of what is news-worthy. I myself did not see the worthiness of this being news other than as I previously stated, that hopefully its gets the attention of management as to how vulnerable its competitive intelligence employees can be in a highly competitive market.

>> Actually it's debatable whether it was illegal or not, but just because they didn't arrest him does not make it legal. And more importantly, we are talking about immoral, not illegal - a very different subject.

If you go back and re-read what Ksig25 wrote, he was talking about illegal. Nevertheless, since it appears your concern is immorality, then as I previously stated, I do not approve of his conduct. However, I also recognize that people have different levels of outrage. What many will do in a grocery store, like taste the fruit to see if itG«÷s ripe or read magazines without buying them, defies the laws of morality too, but they still do it. As for this guy from Huawei, the issue of whether his conduct was immoral or not is between him, his management, and the other parties involved. I personally, donG«÷t think the rest of us are in a position to cast stones since none of us are witnesses or have all the information.
Abby
50%
50%
Abby,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:48 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Ksig25,

How about you send an email to your CEO and ask him to immediately stop all competitive intelligence at your company. Then you wonG«÷t have to worry about your company being the pot calling the kettle black.
btierney
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50%
btierney,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:49 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Wow,

Please up your dosage dude
ksig25
50%
50%
ksig25,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:49 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Phish....you got me on the grammar....I sit here red-faced, lol.

Abby, you might not condone what happened, but you excuse it to a degree that makes it almost acceptable. Its not silly to humiliate him and Huawei for what he did....it was stupid, immoral, and very well could be illegal. Security guards and beat cops are not used to dealing with issues like this, but I guarantee you that authorities more experienced in the realm of IP theft are looking into this. And for the record, I don't think that most companies send in people with fake credentials to sneak into vendor booths to remove equipment from the racks, take off the covers, and photograph them. I think that most companies purchase the equipment and do that in their labs ;)

As for your fears of retaliation from China over this.....give me a break. China has got better stuff to do than get in a tiff with the US over some retarded employee from Huawei getting caught taking pictures of telcom equipment? Even if they would do such a thing, is that suddenly a reason to turn a blind eye to such blatently immoral and most likely illegal actions?

I'm not so stupid to think that companies don't look at each other's stuff....they do it all the time. However, they do it in their labs with equipment they purchased. Most companies don't A) hail from a country that has zero respect for IP law and B) come from a company that is/recently was in the midst of an IP suit with Cisco. The guy is a moron and should be jailed for being an ass clown, if nothing else. Huawei should have egg on its face for a long time and be the laughing stock of the telcom world for being so stupid and cheap. If they need to borrow some money to buy some equipment off of Ebay, tell them to email me.

ksig25
vapa
50%
50%
vapa,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:50 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Everybody does it. When I worked at Cisco (during the bubble) we literally bought every competitor's box, took them apart and photographed them. Don't get me wrong, I am well aware of China's piracy practices, but to say we don't do it is very misleading.

When a respective company buys competitor's products for analysis, everything it does is within legal limits. They BUY it and do whatever with it, but I've never seen any companies blatanly copying competitor's technologies. If they do, then court can settle the issue.

I have respect for Japanese companies because they made same products US companies made but better and cheaper.

The most basic difference between Huawei (maybe all Chinese companies) and US (general Western companies) is that US and Western companies respect local and international laws. I really do think it's a cultural issue. I don't mean to sound like a racist, but whenever I go to Chinese shopping center/mall, I see people disregarding traffic/parking laws all the time. It's just an observation.
turing
50%
50%
turing,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:50 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
>Or is that you just think weG«÷re all just stupid >and believe that employees in other companies >donG«÷t go to a trade shows, used false >identification, walk though other vendorG«÷s booth >after hours, and so on?

Actually, I don't think many people go through competitors' booths after hours and open up their equipment. I also don't think this was a sanctioned Huawei activity - gathering info was I'm sure, but the means is another matter. This could have been an employee from another large company (like Cisco) and it would still be just as wrong and news-worthy.

>And, letG«÷s set the record straight, what he did >was not illegal. ThatG«÷s why heG«÷s not in jail!

Actually it's debatable whether it was illegal or not, but just because they didn't arrest him does not make it legal. And more importantly, we are talking about immoral, not illegal - a very different subject.
yesteryear
50%
50%
yesteryear,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:51 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Oops...

Actually, I take it back... I typed without thinking and in pulling up a Reagan counterpoint, I just typed Carter without thinking.

Carter was probably one of the very few, genuinely good people who served as a US President. He was probably too naive to be a real corporate shill like the rest of them. Don't get me wrong, I am sure he still had corporate interests in his mind, but he probably had some overriding morals that didn't allow him to blatantly use the system to spank the people...

So I probably should publically apologize for the Carter reference. He was one of the very few, truly great people who served his country...

(Oh... that probably pisses off capers even more, if I can stereotype him from just one message and guess the rest of his political views!!! DOH!)

-yesteryear
yesteryear
50%
50%
yesteryear,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:52 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
capers said:
"let me guess...

you think

1. bill clinton was a great president
2. it was only an affair
the felony perjury and felony obstruction of justice didn't really count

3. John kerry is a war hero

4. there were never WMD in Iraq
the 5000 kurds that were gased was a hollywood special affect."

WOW...

Now let me guess...

you think

1. there's actually a difference between Democrats and Republicans, between Nixon and Clinton, between Reagan and Carter, between Dubya and Kerry... cool.

2. the Republicans actually give a damn about family values, and morality... pretty funny.

3. the US government does anything more with its miliatary OTHER than protect the interest of US corporations and John Kerry would actually do something different than that... Hmmm... I can't think of one example, but what the hey.

4. our government actually gives a damn about what any other country does in terms of gassing or killing or brutalizing or denying basic human rights of ANYONE even when that action doesn't directly affect the bottom line of any us corporation... I'm at a loss for an example here too... you actually brought up the case... the kurds got gassed when? When did we do anything about it or even cover it on our news? OH! When it became convenient to use as an excuse to kick ass? Of course, because we are the defender of human rights in the world, and we have an excellant track record of setting things right when we have no monetary interest in it as a country...

And you wonder why it is that we are hated the world over when we say we act on principles and we are actually only acting on self-interest. People respect you more when you just say, "You understand, it's just business... It's not personal." The mafia understood this long ago.

Wow, capers... you're a very funny guy...

-yesteryear
Abby
50%
50%
Abby,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:52 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
ksig25,

Not surprisingly, youG«÷ve called me out as condoning this behavior when IG«÷ve previously stated that I do not. Nevertheless, even though he got caught, this is just plain silly to humiliate him and Huawei for something every company out there does. Or is that you just think weG«÷re all just stupid and believe that employees in other companies donG«÷t go to a trade shows, used false identification, walk though other vendorG«÷s booth after hours, and so on?

The bigger picture here is that turn about is fair play. Is that what you want? Humiliating article after humiliating article on these shenanigans for the sake of payback? Marketing managers who refuse to do competitive intelligence for fear of being publicly flogged? Vendors afraid to attend trade shows because Light Reading's message board has facilitated a lynch mob cultural bias against the country for a dubious and reckless act? To have China ban Cisco and the other vendors from doing business with them, to make up for all the humiliation its people have suffered from this incident that was properly handled by the security guards already?

Did you forget itG«÷s one of the largest growth markets in the industry or are you really just that mad? And, letG«÷s set the record straight, what he did was not illegal. ThatG«÷s why heG«÷s not in jail!
phishphood
50%
50%
phishphood,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:52 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
ksig, that would be grammar. I would not normally consider myself such a pedant, but given the nature of your opening salvo...

Abby, are you insane or just morally bankrupt? Fist of all, learn some grammer....what does
"calling people out of their name; and accusing them of being everything, but a child of God" mean???
btierney
50%
50%
btierney,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:53 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
let me guess...

you think

1. bill clinton was a great president
2. it was only an affair
the felony perjury and felony obstruction of justice didn't really count

3. John kerry is a war hero

4. there were never WMD in Iraq
the 5000 kurds that were gased was a hollywood special affect.
whyiswhy
50%
50%
whyiswhy,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:54 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
"Thank you bill clinton for selling them advanced technology for illegal campaign contributions.

capers in FLA"

Factual reminder: 1) It was Nixon who "opened" China by simply telling the then leadership they could get personally wealthy in the process. Thus the "few must get rich to benefit the people" - plan. Trickle down before trickle down. He also took US off Gold standard, and threw us into the hands of the international banking arbitrage system.

2) RNC's Chinese "donations" far outweigh Clintons. Obvious reason: the Chinese are smart and don't miss a bet.

U.S. has the best government money can buy.

-Why
ksig25
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ksig25,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:54 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Abby, are you insane or just morally bankrupt? Fist of all, learn some grammer....what does
"calling people out of their name; and accusing them of being everything, but a child of God" mean???

Secondly, you can't justify someone's illegal behavior by saying that its the fault of the telcom market and the pressure it puts on people. By that arguement, one could justify any illegal action by pointing to the stresses of their profession. Cisco's new product kicking your company's ass? Hell, just send a competitive marketing manager to shoot Chambers. When asked why he/she committed the crime, the person can just say " Telecom is a highly competitive market, which means the pressures put on competitive intelligence marketing managers is beyond anything you could possibly fathom."

Bottom line is that the man was caught breaking the law. He trespassed by entering a booth after-hours without express permission. Those booths are de-facto private property, leased to the vendors for the duration of the event. The vendors had an expectation of privacy for their booths after specific hours/events, and this guy violated that. Your statement of " So what if he put his hands on the equipment. If the vendors donG«÷t want people to touch the equipment, then donG«÷t put it out on display" is the dumbest damn thing I have read on here in a long time.....and thats saying a lot. I wish you lived near me...I'd love to come steal your sh#t from your home, then justify it by saying not to leave stuff in view, I'm under pressure, etc.

The Huawei employee should be tried and imprisoned, here in the US. Don't let his shady ass slip back to China and escape trial. Additionally, companies have a moral responsibility to consider the company they keep/deal with. Huawei (along with many Asian companies) have what some call "cultural differences in regards to business competition." The rest of us call them amoral, untrustworthy, and consummate liars and thieves. I hope the US and the telcom community lets this slide without delivering a strong slap to Huawei's face.

ksig25
turing
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turing,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:55 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
>When I worked at Cisco (during the bubble) we >literally bought every competitor's box, took >them apart and photographed them.

But you just identified the difference - Cisco bought the boxes. If Huawei had bought the box and taken pictures in their lab there would be no issue (unless they copied patented pieces). In this case an employee went into another company's booth after-hours, using a false badge, opening boxes they did not own.
[ignoring the invalidity of an "everyone does it" defense]
new_light
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new_light,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:55 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Everybody does it. When I worked at Cisco (during the bubble) we literally bought every competitor's box, took them apart and photographed them. Don't get me wrong, I am well aware of China's piracy practices, but to say we don't do it is very misleading.
coreghost
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coreghost,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:56 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
So what if he took some picture after hours. A lot of vendors have pre- and post-show hour visitations in their booths. So what if he put his hands on the equipment. If the vendors don’t want people to touch the equipment, then don’t put it out on display.


He wasn't involved in a pre- or post-show hour
visitation. He was sneaking into booths after
hours with a camera taking apart systems and
photographing them. Sure, you can do that, but
anyone who does is way over the line and if
they get caught, they deserve everything they
get.

I know exactly how competitive information is
gathered and few (if any) companies would do it
in the sort of clumsy, stupid and amaturish way
that Huawei went about doing it. And if they
do get caught, they deserve everything they
get in the way of bad press and a bad reputation.

I don't really understand how making excuses
for Huawei changes anything.

turing
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turing,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:56 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
>I participated in reverse engineering at USA >most respected company: GE cooperate R&D center. >Refrigerator, air conditioners of competitor >brands are dissected to be studied. How do you >explain this? Get real you people.

GE reverse engineers products they buy, in their own lab. If Huawei had bought the product, and dissected it in their own lab it would not be news - nor immoral unless they copied components which are patented. The difference here is that an employee went into someone else's booth, after-hours, with a badge misidentifying themselves, opened up a product they did not own, and then took pictures. If you do not see the distinction there then there is a gap between our moral codes.

I am not saying it's a huge deal - just that it's clearly beyond the reasonable line of conduct at a trade show. Just because other people/companies may do such things is also not an excuse. If a Cisco employee had done the same thing in Nortel's booth, it would be news and quite embarrassing for Cisco. Unfortunately this issue has gotten clouded with racist and inflammatory remarks.
btierney
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btierney,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:57 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
And does anyone not think that China will be the next super power? To be one you must have the economic resources and these guys are getting them.

Thank you bill clinton for selling them advanced technology for illegal campaign contributions.

capers in FLA
Abby
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Abby,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:58 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
>>If you sneak into another vendors booth after show hours and start taking apart equipment to
photograph, you are a spy.
---------
If you think this is a Huawei problem, you are very na+Ľve. Telecom is a highly competitive market, which means the pressures put on competitive intelligence marketing managers is beyond anything you could possibly fathom. Because if you could, you would not be on this message board running your mouth; calling people out of their name; and accusing them of being everything, but a child of God.

So what if he took some picture after hours. A lot of vendors have pre- and post-show hour visitations in their booths. So what if he put his hands on the equipment. If the vendors donG«÷t want people to touch the equipment, then donG«÷t put it out on display.

What this guy did is pale in comparison to things competitive intelligence marketing managers have been ask to do to cover the backs of engineers who didnG«÷t make the feature release, product managers who have misread the market, sales VPs who canG«÷t see their number, business development managers who donG«÷t have a clue, and everyone else in the company looking for an excuse. Just walk down the hall to the marketing department and see whoG«÷s got your back, then come back and tell me youG«÷ve got a fight.
mengg
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mengg,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:59 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
I participated in reverse engineering at USA most respected company: GE cooperate R&D center. Refrigerator, air conditioners of competitor brands are dissected to be studied. How do you explain this? Get real you people. When you think yourself be at a moral higher ground, it's stupid dangerous.
coreghost
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coreghost,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:29:59 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap

>What is wrong to photograph a device publicly >shown in a conference? With so many devices sold >out, is it difficult to buy one from eBay? even >if photograph is forbidden, is this a intended >spying?

In this case, the photographs were taken after
show hours by a person sneaking into the booths
of other vendors. And while sneaking into booths
he was carrying false identification.

If you take photographs during a conference, you
are allowed to get away with whatever the people
in the booth allow you to get away with.

If you sneak into another vendors booth after
show hours and start taking apart equipment to
photograph, you are a spy.

BerkeleyWolf
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BerkeleyWolf,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:00 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
"The contents of Zhu's Memory Sticks included photographs of the FNC 4300, with its casing removed, as well as some video clips of various company Supercomm presentations"

Okey, two things are found: a photographs of a devices and clips of presentation.

Ask few questions:

What is wrong to photograph a device publicly shown in a conference? With so many devices sold out, is it difficult to buy one from eBay? even if photograph is forbidden, is this a intended spying?

What is wrong to make a list of vendors to visit during the conference?

What is wrong with specific devices in mind to learn during a open demonstration?

What is wrong to take some notes when AT&T guys are talking their "secret" publicly to few thousand audiences?

Spy? You must be kidding me.
whyiswhy
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whyiswhy,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:00 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Huawei is NOT a commercial company.

It is a Chinese government contractor, along the lines of Harris in the US. A pig at the government trough, there is no centralized strategy or marketing department. It's not needed. Neither is PR. Nobody is in charge, or so it would seem. Of course, there is a stricy pecking order for salary, inside. Invisible outside.

Add to that the mom and pop at 7-11 business models of even the largest Chinese company / entrepreneur, and you will begin to get a good idea of how they think and what to expect when doing business with them:

There is no law, and if there is, you can be threatened or the judge (or magistrate) can be bribed, and in the unlikely case all else fails, the cash is already in suitcases under the bed, tickets to Singapore included.

Come to think of it, exactly like Tyco or Worldcom or Enron or...all the corporate darlings of the neo-cons.

-Why
Balet
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Balet,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:01 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
A very good friend of mine is an old chinese fiber optics guru (He started that f.o. stuff about the time I was born). He started a company in the US. He also built a company in China recently.

A few days ago I asked for his opinion on one of the chinese companies that we wanted to do a business with.
His comment was: "...they are good guys, nothing is wrong with them. Keep in mind, though, never trust chinese companies, ever."



materialgirl
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materialgirl,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:03 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
THis insular mindset could explain the lack of "developed country" (COMS management words) in the COMS joint venture gear. It puzzles me that two companies would go through all the effort to start a very public joint venture, only to have the products immediately fall on their face due to a lack of basic features. Perhaps a few phone calls could have prevented this situation, but they were not made for some reason.
Mr. Mutt
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Mr. Mutt,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:05 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Flex assisted as an ODM for the Xbox, the original Palm Pilot and other gear. In their San Jose office they also had PCBs and line cards they helped build for Cisco. So it seems they've had the ability to do this for a while.
Mr. Mutt
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Mr. Mutt,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:05 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Smart/Solectron is selling Force to Motorola.
http://www.motorola.com/mediac...
coreghost
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coreghost,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:05 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Every company has its share of idiots in charge - Dilbert the cartoon strip would be redundant if that was not true.

Can you give examples of how crappy they are and why?


The people running Huawei are very unsophisticated
and insular. They just don't understand how
to function in international business outside
China. The impression comes across sometimes
that know they have to be a worldwide company,
but would culturally be much more confortable
not setting foot outside china.

The supercomm disaster is a case in point. They
send the guy in with his "weihua" badge for
information that is of very little use to them
and which they could have found out in other
ways but for their hatred of spending money.

They are really, really cheap. They focus so
much on pennies that they lose dollars.

Rather than make friends in north america and
hire a small operation, the only thing they
are interested in is media relations, sales
and technology transfer back to China.

The stories are that cisco really tried to talk
to them and went to court out of total
frustration with them. Nobody at the company
seemed to take the legal danger they were in
seriously until it was way too late.

There are good people at Huawei, but the culture
there has to change.
yikes_stripes
50%
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yikes_stripes,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:08 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Flex has been going down the ODM trail for quite a while and is doing a good job integrating the various groups that will make it probably the best ODM available.

Solectron is going the opposite direction. It's shedding it's services portion and has sold Force for a pittance. They want to go back to their "core" which is making PCBs. Low margin and they suck at it.

It's important to remember that Flex does not want to be seen as a competitor by their customers so you won't be seeing any Flex boxes per se, even though they designed and built them.
paolo.franzoi
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paolo.franzoi,
User Rank: Light Sabre
12/5/2012 | 1:30:09 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap

Big difference between Front panels and details of printed circuit boards.

But why take photos? Buy the products from a distributor or on Ebay.

seven
whyiswhy
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whyiswhy,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:10 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Peter:

Is that the same booth that was selling 20+mW (Class IV) collimated Green laser pointers at the show in San Jose (cash only please)? The same show that has a "safety inspector" come around and look at booths to see if anyone is going to get exposed to the diverging 0.5mW at 1.5 micron coming out of the end of a fiber?

-Why
zher
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zher,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:11 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
All the verdors put their product pictures on there web site, so what does that matter?
zher
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zher,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:11 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
It happens in all the countries. Don't use your narrow mind to show off.
flam
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flam,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:12 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
"No knifes allowed at School. Then there was a booth that sold Knives at School"

"No knives to be brought to school" and all is consistent. And don't you mean guns instead of knives ...




flam
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flam,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:13 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
But can you name any company that isn't crappy?

Every company has its share of idiots in charge - Dilbert the cartoon strip would be redundant if that was not true.

Can you give examples of how crappy they are and why?

brahmos
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brahmos,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:14 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
there are a lot of small crappy cos in bangalore
too, but the big 'established' ones both MNCs and
indian do treat their employees better than huawei blore. maybe thats by intent - take in hard workers, ride them hard and extract the most possible for 2-3 yrs, then spit them out and chew on fresh meat ?

doesnt sound like a long term plan , its going
to be tough to out muscle csco or jnpr if they cant retain senior vets. I think this strategy *may* work better in shenzhen where sw people dont have that many options compared to B'lore and if they leave it will have to another *tougher* chinese company :-)

brahmos
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brahmos,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:14 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
remember Solectron has a subsidiary called Force Computers which makes many types of embedded board designs (check their website).

http://www.forcecomputers.com/...

Flextronics seems to be interested in bulking up
on sw muscle. maybe their clients want more from them than just manufacturing and test.
flam
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flam,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:14 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Isn't it obvious? Flex manufactures for the big names in telecom/datacom already. Now they're planning to get big in software as well. Soon you might see complete boxes from Flex.

Want to bet that after they're done acquiring Hughes they WON'T go after a big "services" name as well? No name comes to mind, but I think that makes senses as a long term plan. Then you can kiss a Lucent or Nortel good bye, and buy a shiny new Flex BTS.
ragho
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ragho,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:16 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Abby,

Excellent post. This is exactly my point;- the result does not necessarily justify the means, but vendors are doing everything all the way up to intrusive research into others' gears. I am not that the conduct that this guy engaged in is ethically right however.

On the other hand, I see that many are reluctant to accept that this does happen (kind of explains why someone ranked my original question as a '1'). If we are going to get the Chinese to play fair, we have to accept and know what reality is.
kido04
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kido04,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:16 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
The OEM giant first bought over HSS in India and now is aggresively vying for futuresoft (again in India). Is it transforming from a OEM to ODM and servicing across the value chain?
Peter Heywood
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Peter Heywood,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:17 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Truelight, I think you're assuming I'm on Huawei's side because I'm not on your side.

I'm not on anybody's side - your's or Huawei's. My previous note is merely pointing out two things:

(1) Light Reading isn't in a position where it can say that Zhu took boards out of equipment. We've reported what we know: Zhu says he didn't and other folk say they've seen evidence that suggests he did.

(2) Huawei appeared to handle my enquiries regarding the incident with integrity and open-ness.

I do think this incident is damaging for Huawei. Folk like me might have given Huawei the benefit of the doubt on the Cisco affair, which Huawei puts down to rogue developers. But now something else has happened - even if it is minor - folk like me have to start wondering.

Peter Heywood
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Peter Heywood,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:17 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Someone who wants to remain anonymous sent LR this note:

If filming is prohibited at Supercomm, why was there a booth set up in the corner to sell high Resolution cameras for $199.00? They seemed to have a brisk business selling 4 Megapixel cameras, that could also record 30 seconds of movie....maybe more. I then saw several people using these cameras photographing product at booths. Almost as if, "No knifes allowed at School. Then there was a booth that sold Knives at School"
Abby
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Abby,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:17 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
>>I do think this incident is damaging for Huawei. Folk like me might have given Huawei the benefit of the doubt on the Cisco affair, which Huawei puts down to rogue developers. But now something else has happened - even if it is minor - folk like me have to start wondering.
------------------------------------------

Competitive intelligence is a natural part of doing business. Without it, a company will not be in business for very long. Competitive intelligence helps a company do a better job of positioning, pricing, and distributing its product. Additionally, it helps a company develop alternative competitive scenarios, structure attack plans, and evaluate potential competitive moves. In fact, reverse engineering, considered an appropriate tool for competitive intelligence, may yield important competitive intelligence information about a competitorG«÷s quality and costs.

Nevertheless, problems often arise in how competitive intelligence gathering is managed. For instance, in a highly competitive market, competitive intelligence can become such a target of frustration that it often results in dubious or reckless conduct while, typically, in a less competitive market the effort cannot even be cost justified.

Therefore, from my perspective, the damage for Huawei is that Light Reading decided to report on it as if it was something novel, even though itG«÷s not. On the other hand, hopefully Light Reading has woken up the management in this industry as to just how vulnerable its competitive intelligence employees can be in a highly competitive market.
gzkom
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gzkom,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:18 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
If we want to keep our secret, we'd better not sell anything FBI.

That would make any industry spy difficult to break the secret.

I rarely see a show that prohibits photography or notes.

We used to be so open and confident. Is this just a beginning of a trend?

Poor we American.
Truelight1
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Truelight1,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:18 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
None as larger and powerful as Huawei. As you grow as a company you tend to change for the better. For someone as large as these guys still wallowing in the the gutter it makes you think.

This is becuase they are all Chinese for top to bottm, no different culture - lots of inbreeding.
Truelight1
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Truelight1,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:18 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Peter, this company has demonstrated it's ability to copy and circumvent the Western laws - iots a culture think. They are 100% Chinese and do not have the same values as the West. There's nothing wrong with that of course but hey the day will come when those in the West telecom industry will pay the price or lack of revenue as a result of supporting - industrial espionage should not be supported. Your seemingly defense of them puts you in and LR in a difficult position in the future - power of the press

BTW do not remove this post as it wouild show I have hit a deep nerve.

startup_shutup
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startup_shutup,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:19 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
>> info from their indian ops is mid-level+
>> employees frustrated and deserting en masse. >> very high attrition, no respect or prospects, no
>> flextime, late hrs - weekends common.

There are many startups in SV that fit this
description so what's new?
Peter Heywood
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Peter Heywood,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:20 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
On Geoff's 3rd point, I should point out that it's yet to be proven whether Yi Bin Zhu took boards out of racks.

When I interviewed Yi Bin Zhu, I asked him twice whether he'd done this and he twice denied it. This appears to contradict evidence cited by the vendor that caught him -- finding him photographing equipment with the cover off, having pictures of circuit boards on his camera memory stick.

I should also point out that Huawei invited me to talk to Yi Bin Zhu. When we heard about the incident, I tracked down the most senior person from Huawei at Supercomm and asked him whether the story we'd heard was true. He was clearly very surprised and told me he knew nothing about it. I went away, and some time later, he phoned me to say he'd done some internal investigation and asked me to come back and talk to Yi Bin Zhu.

In other words, I got the impression that Huawei was being open and honest with me.
Machavelli
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Machavelli,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:20 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Interesting article on how China has found another reason to jail its own citizens.

http://www.rense.com/general53...
brahmos
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brahmos,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:22 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
agreed.

info from their indian ops is mid-level+
employees frustrated and deserting en masse. very high attrition, no respect or prospects, no
flextime, late hrs - weekends common.

I think they try to run a hi-tech co as a shenzhen factory...there's only so much engineers will take, esp if there are many other options outside.
Abby
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Abby,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:22 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Hi Geoff,

>>..."how do you break into a booth"? Answer - it's a virtual break in :-)

Thanks for the explanation. Suffice to say, itG«÷s a stretch.

WhatG«÷s obvious is that people have different levels of outrage. Consider what happens when you go grocery shopping. Ever encounter any of this?

-Open the egg carton to see if none are cracked.
-Taste the cherries or grapes to see if they are ripe.
-Squeeze the peaches or tomatoes to see if they are firm.
-Spray the air freshener to smell the scent.
-Let your child eat the cookie before you pay for it.
-Open a flip open box to read the instructions inside.
-Read from the magazine before buying it.

BTW, I know of one U.S. auto manufacturer that purchases its competitorG«÷s vehicles. They put it in a lab to do extensive analysis including breaking down the consistency of the paint.

I think the nub is when you infringe on intellectual property.

Oh, the perils of being a vendorG«™


OpticOm
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OpticOm,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:23 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
I intend to stay where I belong. And it was not a rant.
Read an editorial in Washington Times of today, moron.

The Washington Times
www.washingtontimes.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

China's military threat
Published June 26, 2004

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Pentagon's "Annual Report on the Military Power of the People's Republic of China" is a troubling document for a variety of reasons. Not the least of these is that the report makes clear that China, despite attempting a more tempered approach in recent years, is still committed to Communist ideology as it relates to foreign policy. Released in May, the report outlines how China's military buildup is in direct connection to its regional ambitions, which include challenging U.S. dominance in the Pacific. China's goal of regional hegemony is still many years off, though approaching at a pace that demands immediate attention.
China reasons correctly that it must upgrade its military, the People's Liberation Army (PLA), to U.S. armed forces standards through a prolonged concentration on increasing investment and procurement of high-tech, "network-centric" systems. As the report notes, "China's military modernization is oriented on developing the capabilities to fight and win 'local wars under high-tech conditions.' Based largely on observations of U.S. and allied operations since Operation Desert Storm [in 1991], PLA modernization envisions seeking precision-strike munitions, modern command and control systems, and state-of-the-art [intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR)] platforms. Beijing sees its potential future adversaries, particularly the U.S. Armed Forces, acquiring these advanced systems, and this is the driver in PLA defensive and offensive force modernization." According to the report, China's military spending will increase 11.6 percent to $25 billion this year. The amount in real terms is actually higher, the report cautions, when research and foreign purchases are added, which would bring it between $50 billion to $70 billion. Such spending makes China the third-largest defense spender after the United States and Russia. China's military imports also rose 7 percent from last year, 90 percent of which come from Russia alone.
With its ISR advancements, the PLA expects to "provide a regional, and potentially hemispheric, continuous surveillance capability," according to the report. This would include land, air, sea and space systems comparable to U.S. systems. Also included in the PLA's modernization program are space-based systems with military and intelligence potential, antisatellite systems capable of disabling enemy satellites and electronic warfare systems capable of concealing PLA movement and operations, weakening enemy air-defense early-warning systems and disrupting integrated air-defense systems. In short, these are not only the high-tech systems that the U.S. military has employed with such deadly efficiency upon lesser enemies, but they are the sort that a military would need to defeat the United States.
The balance of power in Eastern Asia is quickly shifting in China's favor, especially in regards to Taiwan. Even if high-tech nations restrict arms trade with China, it is committing more resources toward modernizing its military than any other nation in the region. It is only a matter of time. As such, it is clear that the Bush administration's security strategy of ensuring U.S. military preeminence in the world applies to both fighting terror as well as guaranteeing peace.
flam
50%
50%
flam,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:23 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
I've worked with a number of Chinese engineers. When they are new to a project/product/system, they will suck up everything in sight.

Example: we had a couple of these guys come over from the China office for 6 months. They would copy everything - documents, notes, presentation material, logs of test runs in the lab, younameit.

Exasperated, I once asked them to stop making notes of a PPT as I would give them the damn thing in softcopy if they asked for it.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The Chinese spy using vacuum cleaners.
Balet
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Balet,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:23 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
The Huawei company is not stupid, and they have money. They can hire engineers from their competitors...it's unlikely they tell one guy to do stupid thing like this...


Which competitor's engineer will join the company paying so low salaries? Some of my friends in silicon valley have a special name: "chinese salaries"...

I agree that Huwaei is not stupid. What they do is normal for them, since, again, it is a part of the culture. There are a few other countries where it is perfectly OK to do reverse engineering including the one where I used to live.
gbennett
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gbennett,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:24 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Comrades,
Several people in this thread have used the phrase "crossing a line", and I think that's the nub of this incident.

Yi Bin Zhu crossed the line when he:

1. Walked onto a competitor's booth after the show had officially closed. Note that the rent-a-cop would not have been there if he'd visited within the recognised hours of business. I think this would be my answer to an earlier question..."how do you break into a booth"? Answer - it's a virtual break in :-)

2. He took photographs without the permission of the booth staff. Now this one is a bit of a grey area - I've certainly taken shots of old friends in groups with the booth as a background. But I guess I had the implicit permission of the booth "owner" because at least one of the the subjects in the photograph would be working on the booth. Also I took those photographs inside normal show hours. One poster asked if there are "no photography" signs at the show. I didn't look specifically, but I understand from discussions that photography is not allowed (maybe someone could confirm this point).

3. He took boards out of their racks, and the cases off of boxes. Now that there is a line that has most definitely been crossed. Big time.

Like many people on this thread I would be surprised if this was officially sanctioned by Huawei. But the definition of "official sanction" is often fuzzy. Whoever made the decision for this activity to take place clearly has no understanding of the risk/reward value of what was done.

Cheers,
Geoff
ragho
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ragho,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:26 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap

My question is, what exactly is wrong with studying your competitor's products?

It isn't unusual for a company to purchase a competitor's gear from a third party and analyze it in and out. Vendors have done this for years to look for ways to better improve their own gear. Reverse engineering however, can be considered unlawful theft of IP.

I doubt that this chump was acting alone. No vendor sends an employee to a trade show without the need to gather competitive intelligence. This guy just happened to be doing something in public that vendors traditionally have done within their lab environments.
Truelight1
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Truelight1,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:27 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
It is good to see that light reading places this company as part of its top ten. Anyone with industry credibility knows this company is of low morale standing.

Any US customer buying their equipment because its cheap is in for a tough time.

whyiswhy
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whyiswhy,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:28 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Cheap is an absolute term, I like cheaper, since it is relative to other things they have to buy. But cheaper imports means more expensive exports. So the economy slows down, since they export less. Have to live more on internal economy and resources. Which is what all countries should strive to do anyway.

-Why
lightdim
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lightdim,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:29 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Oh. In that case (Yuan 3.6 to $) your chinese friends will be driving a lot more Mercedes with cheap gas for them.

Seeing the light

Original original message:
>So my Chinese friends, the moves now in >progress are leading to a dramatic inflationary >spiral, which thanks to zero savings will be >followed by wholesale bank failures, followed >by the government agreeing to float the Yuan, >externally.

>Park that Mercedes, cause you can't buy gas. >Use a few lumps of coal for heat in the winter. >Go back to the family farm so you can eat
lightdim
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lightdim,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:29 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Hmm. Let's see. Each time I go to a trade show, I make a list of booth I would like to see (most of them competitors), write down what I would like to find. I go there and look at their parts, write down on my notebook what they look like, what form factor, what function. I make small talks with the guys, and write down what they told me-how they are doing, how many people they have left, how much money they have left, who is their customer. I comment on their product, and say good luck and move on to my next target. I come back, write a short trip report on what I saw and heard, and send it to the whole company.

For so many years I thought I am just a dumb engineer, not realizing I am on par with Ken Lay of Enron.

I must leave here now and write my CEO a memo demanding a 1000% pay raise.

Lightdim
whyiswhy
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whyiswhy,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:30 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Wha, huh?

It is well recognized the Yuan is the most undervalued currency, bar none. Our sending artifically cheap dollars over there (due to arbitrage) makes it possible for them to buy oil cheaper, since they buy oil with dollars. That and an artifically pumped economy (again due to arbitrage) makes the price of oil go up.

As long as they didn't need to import, everyone won. Carly, Bill, Steve etal offshore their parts and jobs and make money. US taxpayers and workers (the same thing) lose.

So the Yuan has to be revalued, exactly like Snow is trying to do. From 8.2:1 to (over time) to something approaching the PPP exchange rate, about 3.65:1 (at present).

Unless the Chinese banks collapse, in which case the exchange rate goes to 82:1 like you suggest. Then we have war. You like that idea?

-Why
slayer666
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slayer666,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:30 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Hey MAchavelli,

Sony has a plant in Pittsburg building brand new, flat screen Wega's, Projection and Plasma. All built in the USA, and they start with sand for the picture screen!

Not so fast on the "nothin' build here" line.

Ben_Stern
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Ben_Stern,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:31 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
"I have seen many home-grown American companies do exactly the same thing for the last 10 years G«Ű send out their boy scouts take notes G«Ű conceal their identity & company names G«Ű test and reverse engineer competitive products to deathG«™. right here on U.S. soil - so what is so controversial about this incident ? I donG«÷t know G«Ű perhaps the fact that this poor gentleman happened to be on the wrong G«£campG«• G«Ű IG«÷d like to see one of us be mistreated the same way in one of the Chinese trade-showsG«™just because he took notes, diagrams or took pictures. what would your reaction be thenG«™???"

This is Xenophobia? You repeated his crime .. he took notes, diagrams to reverse engineer a product. The guy is a snake ... a bold faced criminal. It just so happens that he is from China.

He probably had that stupid smile ... bowing a hundred times ... as he hid behind his broken English and bad teeth.

He is no different than Bernie or the guys from Enron. He should be prosecuted and thrown in jail. Fry his ass ... make an example of him.

"I told you not to be stupid you moron." - Ben

Heb81
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Heb81,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:31 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
LR job is to report what's going on. It's this board that mades the interpretation.
IMO, this dude is doing it alone, maybe thinking that if he can pull this off he can go back and show off what he learned from the trip to the U.S. He probably is in deep trouble now, likely will be fired and maybe more, me thinks.

The Huawei company is not stupid, and they have money. They can hire engineers from their competitors...it's unlikely they tell one guy to do stupid thing like this...
coreghost
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coreghost,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:31 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
The exchange rate could very well be the problem. But for the gas price to go way up one would expect the Yuen to go 82 to a dollar since the dollar price for gas would be relatively stable.


That line of thinking only works if people
respect the exchange rate and its somewhat
realistic. If people stop believing the offical
exchange rate, prices will adjust themselves
accordingly. Then the government has a choice
of changing the rates, applying financial controls
or ending up in a currency/foreign-exchange
crisis.

The dollar and the Yuen are both unstable
currencies in my opinion. The mismanagement
on both sides of the pacific (US and China) is
only leading to a bigger crisis.

lightdim
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lightdim,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:32 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
I am having real trouble following Why's logic.

The exchange rate could very well be the problem. But for the gas price to go way up one would expect the Yuen to go 82 to a dollar since the dollar price for gas would be relatively stable. Other than that would make Huawei system selling at at <10% of CISCO system I do not see anything wrong:-)

Somehow Snow is in China trying to convince them to move the rate in the other direction. Why sure would make a much better Treasury header than Snow.
whyiswhy
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whyiswhy,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:33 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Paranoia or facing facts, COGS?

Are you saying the fixed 8.2:1 Yuan to Dollar exchange rate is not the core of the problem?

Are you saying you are not a bit worried that the Chinese national debt is 100% of their GDP?

So my Chinese friends, the moves now in progress are leading to a dramatic inflationary spiral, which thanks to zero savings will be followed by wholesale bank failures, followed by the government agreeing to float the Yuan, externally.

Park that Mercedes, cause you can't buy gas. Use a few lumps of coal for heat in the winter. Go back to the family farm so you can eat.

That AND Taiwan/China war to cover the evidence, distact the populace.

Just like here in the US.

-Why
Light_Headed
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Light_Headed,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:33 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Makes sense to me.
Light_Headed


The only purposes I have found for having booths at tradeshows are:

1) Show your competitors you are still alive
2) Hype up products for the press to see

Customers already know about your products because you have a sales team constantly talking to them or approaching them. If you don&#8217;t, then you are lost already.

Companies spy on each other all of the time; it&#8217;s called competitive intelligence. Anyone that thinks this doesn&#8217;t go on is extremely na+Ľve. Whether you hire a university professor or cute girls to flirt and get information; it&#8217;s all relative. Some companies even have relationships with their customers where they go visit locations that have competitor equipment for them to inspect, all free of charge or maybe the cost of a nice dinner.
I guess this guy that was caught was just really stupid regarding the manner he went about it. What is he going to do with the information he gets anyway? There are several ways to design anything from automobiles to circuit boards. If I was ruthless and wanted to build a competitive product, why not go hire talent away and can them 6 months later?

I always respected Juniper because they never wasted their time going to tradeshows and only made press releases when they were shipping real products to customers. Maybe that has changed, but I always thought tradeshows were a big waste of money other than attending the lectures, which you can buy in a book instead. That is just my opinion.

OD
networking_legend
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networking_legend,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:34 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Enough of your ranting. If you don't like it, you can always leave.
brahmos
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brahmos,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:35 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
> new low

no it aint! the lowest I have seen was when a
particular country's el presidante claimed his
nukular tech was being traded around like pepsi
caps by a "rogue employee" and the US State Dept
accepted it at face value, and makes a habit of
prasing the El Presidante regularly as a "faithful
ally".

what lies!
OpticOm
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OpticOm,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:35 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
We hurt ourselves more than the Chinese hurt us (now at least).
Sending technology to China, allowing H1Bs to work on our latest technology, outsourcing our jobs, all for a fast buck, defies common sense and our national interests and security in long run.
The fact that we are dealing with a totalitarian regime, involved in some of the worst crimes and human rights abuses of the 20th century, does not seem to bother decision makers in our country.
Running a huge trade deficit, putting our people on the street and giving our best technologies is criminal.
Do not tell me that capitalist economic development brings an open society: there are many historical examples of economically developed dictatorships. The more developed a dictatorship, the more damage it can do...
And the time will come when they, with their infinite work force and army, which is modernizing at amazing speed, will not be happy only with huge trade surpluses...
Taiwan will probably be only the appetizer for the feast they prepare for.
Then, and only then, our wonderful ruling elites will turn to us, the average Joes, to face the evil one more time...
sigint
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sigint,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:36 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
mdwdm:
It is obvious that lightreading will never miss
any dirt related to Huawei. Everytime the
message boards are flooded.
__________________________________________________

On the contrary, LR seemed to be on a PR offensive for Huawei until recently. Including flattering posts by LR staff on several threads. This story helps balance thing out, and how!
coreghost
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coreghost,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:36 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
I&#8217;m not condoning his behavior, but if a vendor puts its product out on display, it is out on display. Therefore, were there any signs saying,
- Photographing equipment is prohibited?
- Do not touch the equipment?
- Do not dismantle?
- Viewing is limited to the external chassis only?
- Absolutely no internal circuit board viewing?

Beyond the Devil's Advocate argument, you have
to consider what is resonable. We can assume
that the Huawei employee was an educated person.

- During the show there is a game played between
employees and people out looking for information.
You can pursue information up to the point where
you are told "no". If they don't understand
"no", security gets called and they are pushed
away.

- Anyone searching booths after show hours or
when the booth is unattended is outside the
box. They get security called on them and
better have an explaination. No reasonable
person is going to search someone elses booth
after hours because of cultural or any other
sort of differences.

Further, if they are wearing a badge that does
not indicate their correct company, thats beyond
any sort of reasonable explaination.

The lightreading account could be wrong or
inaccurate. I accept that. But based on the
account, you can't really excuse him very easily
or Huawei.

If you do something stupid at a trade show and
get caught, its never good no matter who your
company is. In Huawei's case, they already
have a terrible reputation. Its hard to give
the benefit of the doubt to a company that has
admitted stealing software and is the PLA's
preferred contractor for selling into horrible
countries like Saddam's Iraq or the Taliban's
Afghanistan.
sigint
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50%
sigint,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:37 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
coreghost:
You are thinking too competent. The first level
of stealing is to identify components (esp.
commodity components) and layout on the board.

It doesn't tell you everything, but if you have
no understanding of how to build a particular
product, its a good place to start if your goal
is strictly the best possible copy of the
competitive product.
__________________________________________________

I agree - but not completely. Most critical components (ICs) would probably be covered up with heat-sinks, and wouldn't reveal much. What much could you figure out form memories, buffers and passives?

Where I agree - back-plane connectors and such could suggest something. System modularity, in the form of daughter cards and add-on modules, might reveal underlying design philosophy (or it's skeleton) to the trained eye. That begs the question - if you do have a trained eye, why do you need to steal in the first place.

In the past, I have at trade shows requested booth personnel to show me what the innards of a box look like. For two reasons:

1) Curiosity, and nerdy fascination
2) I would NOT want something I design to resemble something somebody else has already done. Pretty much like two socialites who wouldn't be seen dead together in the same party dress.

I guess most engineers might identify with the above.
Abby
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Abby,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:37 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
The question is did this guy cross the line. Or even better--where do you draw the line. The way some of you talk I think you don't draw any line at all.
------------------------------------

IG«÷m not condoning his behavior, but if a vendor puts its product out on display, it is out on display. Therefore, were there any signs saying,
- Photographing equipment is prohibited?
- Do not touch the equipment?
- Do not dismantle?
- Viewing is limited to the external chassis only?
- Absolutely no internal circuit board viewing?

Additionally, what if this guy was trying to determine the soundness of the companyG«÷s products because Huawei was thinking of buying them or forming a partnership? We really donG«÷t know. The guards did the right thing by asking him to leave, but to call it outright stealing without all the facts isnG«÷t really fair now is it?

At the end of the day, I think there are a lot of questions that still need to be answered.

BTW, how do you break into a booth?
firestop
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firestop,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:37 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap

...and if they were Klingons I'm sure they'd really care.
coreghost
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coreghost,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:38 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Stop trying to pretend that Huawei is
the same as China or Chinese people. Huawei's
problems have nothing do with China, they dont
even have much to do with America. They have
to with bad leadership and bad management
at Huawei.

Ciscos last option was going to court. Cisco
told them to stop and they refused. So rather
than get along with cisco, Huawei decided to
fight a battle in court in which they were
guilty and could not possibly win.

Now they have humiliated the company again
at Supercomm.

Huawei has taken a good international reputation
and destroyed it through its own foolish actions.

mdwdm
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mdwdm,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:38 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
I will say it again. The reason I believe Lightreading is merely interested in flooding its message boards:

Lightreading has never shown any interest or effort in following up with how Huawei treats
the "rogue employee". Worst crime happens
regularly at companies of Huawei's size,
it is the followups that differentiate
good companies from evil ones. In the
case of Huawei, that is always a foregone
conclusion as is evident on lightreading
boards. No one really cares.
----
I dispute the "dirt" allegation. We've covered good as well as bad news about Huawei. Some of our best scoops have been positive ones for the company.
CogswellCogs
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50%
CogswellCogs,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:39 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Your paranoia is amusing. As always, so are your opinions.
whyiswhy
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50%
whyiswhy,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:40 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
"Lastly, you must be REALLY dumb to display sensitive products/technologies in a public venue.

The problem is not with Huawei, or the Chinese - you could use the same argument with the Indians, South Koreans or any other emerging techno-powerG«Ű the issue is an accelerated commoditization of networking technologies G«Ű and the U.S. needs to step up by innovating, creating value or creating significantly stronger brands G«Ű it happened in many industries G«Ű automobile, Motorcycles, semi-conductors, and now networking"

Talk about shooting yourself in the foot! Did you bother to read what you wrote after your wrote it?

So your proposal is vendors should "dumb down" their displays, and hide what they "really" have to offer? That theory concludes with don't sell the best technology either, because the sale could be to a third party, and get copied!

Huawei once again got caught with their pants down!

And the problem is international monetary exchange rate arbitrage, driven by bankers buying politicians...all over the world.

China's debt is equal to their GDP. The US has shix fits when it gets to a few percent! Now they are giving away credit cards! This in a country with no consumer protections, no real bankruptcy processes or courts, the consumers think money is free, etc!

Arbitrage: The biggest crime in the world, scarcely mentioned in the press.

Crack rock in pocket ($20) gets you private cell, Billions stolen from consumers and taxpayers pockets gets you private jet.

Vote the criminal wealthy class out of office while you have the chance. Or you will end up like China with the criminal wealthy class in dictatorial charge, and your ass in a prison camp making Nikes and Levi's.

-Why
Peter Heywood
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Peter Heywood,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:40 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
mdwdm wrote: "It is obvious that lightreading will never miss any dirt related to Huawei. Everytime the message boards are flooded."

It's absolutely true that we wouldn't want to miss an opportunity to run a scoop on Huawei. People are very interested in Huawei so it's our job to keep them informed. The evidence is in the message boards getting flooded.

I dispute the "dirt" allegation. We've covered good as well as bad news about Huawei. Some of our best scoops have been positive ones for the company.
CtrlAltDel
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50%
CtrlAltDel,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:41 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Totally agree on what you and mdwdm said. If there's a message being reinforced in this article and the whole discussion, it is the love of tabloid-style journalism in the country, or the willingness to vilify anyone to make ourselves feel better and feel being right. Now shall we interpret the article into saying that this is why we lost all our high-paying jobs in the telecom sector?

We cannot only blame the publisher but also the audience who are so eager for these type of 'news'.

CtrlAltDel



semi_infinite
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50%
semi_infinite,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:41 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
As my former college room mate (a former red guard) told me. Look out for the commies masquerading as legitimate businessmen. Huawei is just a PLA subsidiary and they steal from the best. Stealing is part of their job description which comes directly "Quotations" from Chairman Mao.
alok
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alok,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:41 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
There has certainly been a precedent in the EE CAD
area where intellectual property has been missapproriated.

There have been two famous cases in the EE CAD area where companies were caught with stolen code.

One was the founder of Avant - Gerry Hsu, a bunch of chinese engineers were sent to prison for this.
Gerry is now in Taiwan retired I think.

The other is more recent. Nassda where the following ruling was just issued
#In essence the court has found conclusively that #trade secrets were misappropriated," Jackson #said. Although this greatly increases Synopsys' #chances of winning an upcoming trial. In a #statement, Sang Wang, Nassda's chief executive #officer, said this preliminary ruling does not #resolve the claims made by Synopsys. "We disagree #with the discovery referee's orders and we intend #to continue to defend ourselves vigorously," he #said.

Draw your own conclusions!!!

thanks
alok
>What "famous excident"? Where did you go to your
>grade school, dude?

>Why do you like Chinese engineers if they will
>just steal?

>I really like chinese engineers; however, it is a >part of the culture, I guess. Stealing >intelectual property is absolutely normal in >China.
>One of my previous companies was involved in a >famous excident. The chineese engineer stole >designs and drawings from his large company to >join our startup. FBI has been looking for him >for last 6 years or so.

>Normal component/module companies never send any >samples to Huawei, even hermetically packaged.
zeudude
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50%
zeudude,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:42 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
The lynch mob is out G«Ű panics G«Ű letting out half-hidden bursts of xenophobia. But then again G«Ű discuss lists are usually good outlet for frustrated and angry people - you know..those who give foreigners big smiles in the workplace then hide behind their anonymous accounts...

It seems America can only define itself through new enemies G«Ű vilify the other G«Űthe communists, the Japanese, the Arabs, the Muslim, North Korea andG«™soon the Chinese G«Ű constantly redefining new G«£ideological frontiersG«• to take down this is wrong and part of a bigger problem ( to be discussed in other forums lists)

I have seen many home-grown American companies do exactly the same thing for the last 10 years G«Ű send out their boy scouts take notes G«Ű conceal their identity & company names G«Ű test and reverse engineer competitive products to deathG«™. right here on U.S. soil - so what is so controversial about this incident ? I donG«÷t know G«Ű perhaps the fact that this poor gentleman happened to be on the wrong G«£campG«• G«Ű IG«÷d like to see one of us be mistreated the same way in one of the Chinese trade-showsG«™just because he took notes, diagrams or took pictures. what would your reaction be thenG«™???

Lastly, you must be REALLY dumb to display sensitive products/technologies in a public venue.

The problem is not with Huawei, or the Chinese - you could use the same argument with the Indians, South Koreans or any other emerging techno-powerG«Ű the issue is an accelerated commoditization of networking technologies G«Ű and the U.S. needs to step up by innovating, creating value or creating significantly stronger brands G«Ű it happened in many industries G«Ű automobile, Motorcycles, semi-conductors, and now networking

Look at the top PC vendors in the world (I didnG«÷t say manufacturersG«™) all are U.S. companies G«Ű Dell. HP, Compaq G«Ű although pretty much all the components (except the higher-value Pentiums) are built in Taiwan/China etc. - so it is not always a lost battle - don't panic :)

I think Cisco understood what is coming and have adjusted their business model accordingly over the last 2-3 years: bye bye high - margin routers :)
mdwdm
50%
50%
mdwdm,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:42 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
It is obvious that lightreading will never miss
any dirt related to Huawei. Everytime the
message boards are flooded.

So a Huawei employee tried to spy on competitions. Big deal, Chinese invented
spying after all. If Huawei needs pictures
of FNC's CPs, they certainly don't need
to send some low level engineer to supercomm.
They could just pick up the phone and call
any of major Chinese carrier. After all tons of those are sold to everywhere in China and Huawei is run by Chinese military according to lightreading boards.

Am I the only one wondering what happened to
Huawei's "rogue employee"? To me, it tells
more than anything else. As far as dirty
lundry goes, each one of you know who you
are. I could go on for days...

C'mon, Lightreading, you can do something positive.

-----
The question is did this guy cross the line. Or even better--where do you draw the line. The way some of you talk I think you don't draw any line at all.
materialgirl
50%
50%
materialgirl,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:43 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Huawei has some work to do. In the COMS conference call reviewing the May quarter, management noted how their Huawei joint venture was getting off to a slower than expected start. This was due to a lack of features in the joint venture products, both in switches and in routers, both in hardware and in software. They expect the lacking features to be supplied by year-end.

Apparently inside China, the current feature set is ok, but not in the "developed world" as management identified it. In other words, Huawei is experiencing the same problem in Japan.

The lacking features include speed, as well as software features listed on COMS investor page. Bottom line, while Huawei does have motivation to figure out what competitors have that they lack, they do have help from COMS. Why COMS did not know these features were needed remains a mystery.
Photon_Got_Mad
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Photon_Got_Mad,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:43 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
""Also, in some messages, it kept on insisting that he broke into the vendor's booth in after hrs and dismantled the box and took pictures. I did not see a word on lightreading's report.""

"Gees--read the article again! I'll make it easier on you, just read the first two sentences."

==================================================

I guess the following two sentences makes your argument even stronger.

Zhu says his notes were just a guide to the vendors he was interested in. He denied pulling out any vendor's circuit boards to have a closer look.

opticalwatcher
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opticalwatcher,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:43 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
"Talking about thief, you must be really proud the stealing of Native America's land, Iraq's oil..."

Hah! That's right out of the old joke. An American ambassidor is waiting with a Russian Premier at Moscow's new subway. They are waiting, and waiting. Finally the American says, "Your subway is late." The exasperated Russian replies, "Yes, but what about the American Indians?"

Photon_Got_Mad you must be from Huawei. Why else would you pull out the classic redirection?
Photon_Got_Mad
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Photon_Got_Mad,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:44 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Talking about thief, you must be really proud the stealing of Native America's land, Iraq's oil...
Scott Raynovich
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Scott Raynovich,
User Rank: Light Sabre
12/5/2012 | 1:30:44 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
"There are millions of lawsuits among the big companies concerning IP rights, patents, bla bla. I did see any report but the Cisco vs Huawei one."

Actually, we report on these all the time. A search under "lawsuits" in LR brings up dozens of hits. we've reported on many IP battles, including high-profile ones such as Nortel/ONI, Multiplex/Lucent, Alcatel/Daines, e.t.c. You should really do more homework before making such statements.

http://www.lightreading.com/se...

Also the news here is that a Huawei employee had his credentials yanked by Supercomm, and was accused of spying. If that happened to anybody else at Supercomm it would also be news and we would report it.

Are you aware of similar stories at Supercomm? If so, please tell.


coreghost
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coreghost,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:45 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
In most modern era circuit boards, to know anything useful regarding the interconnections, you need to look through a high power microscope. I am not a h/w or manufacturing engineers but I have seen colleagues using them. Not sure about FNC, but I would think their PCBs will also have multi layered circuitry that will make any pictures taken of only the top layer pretty useless.


You are thinking too competent. The first level
of stealing is to identify components (esp.
commodity components) and layout on the board.

It doesn't tell you everything, but if you have
no understanding of how to build a particular
product, its a good place to start if your goal
is strictly the best possible copy of the
competitive product.
cyber_techy
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cyber_techy,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:45 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap



Dude, he was pulling cards out of the chassis, removing any covering or mechanical stuff that got in the way, and photographing the circuit boards.

Digerato




In most modern era circuit boards, to know anything useful regarding the interconnections, you need to look through a high power microscope. I am not a h/w or manufacturing engineers but I have seen colleagues using them. Not sure about FNC, but I would think their PCBs will also have multi layered circuitry that will make any pictures taken of only the top layer pretty useless.
coreghost
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coreghost,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:45 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Some people simply cannot accept the fact that there is a strong company in high tech coming from China, kicking ass. But he is perfectly OK with the made-in China low-cost products he is happy to buy from WalMart but he is not happy to see one day he has to buy other high tech gears from China. This is simply stupid.


No. What people cannot accept is that a large
company like Huawei is run by such poor leaders.
The leadership of Huawei thinks its own engineers
are just not good enough to build competitive
products. So they keep sending them out to steal.

There are much better companies in China than
Huawei led by people who know how to run a
business and who trust their own engineers
to build products.

Beyond that, Huawei has admitted to stealing
software and copying documentation from cisco.
Nobody is going to believe the word of an
admitted thief a second time.

Optic_Dude
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Optic_Dude,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:46 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
The only purposes I have found for having booths at tradeshows are:

1) Show your competitors you are still alive
2) Hype up products for the press to see

Customers already know about your products because you have a sales team constantly talking to them or approaching them. If you don&#8217;t, then you are lost already.

Companies spy on each other all of the time; it&#8217;s called competitive intelligence. Anyone that thinks this doesn&#8217;t go on is extremely na+Ľve. Whether you hire a university professor or cute girls to flirt and get information; it&#8217;s all relative. Some companies even have relationships with their customers where they go visit locations that have competitor equipment for them to inspect, all free of charge or maybe the cost of a nice dinner.
I guess this guy that was caught was just really stupid regarding the manner he went about it. What is he going to do with the information he gets anyway? There are several ways to design anything from automobiles to circuit boards. If I was ruthless and wanted to build a competitive product, why not go hire talent away and can them 6 months later?

I always respected Juniper because they never wasted their time going to tradeshows and only made press releases when they were shipping real products to customers. Maybe that has changed, but I always thought tradeshows were a big waste of money other than attending the lectures, which you can buy in a book instead. That is just my opinion.

OD
opticalwatcher
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opticalwatcher,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:46 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
"Also, in some messages, it kept on insisting that he broke into the vendor's booth in after hrs and dismantled the box and took pictures. I did not see a word on lightreading's report."

Gees--read the article again! I'll make it easier on you, just read the first two sentences.

An arguement I'll never agree to "Everyone is doing it." Sure, and everyone is stealing, killing, and torturing too. That must make it okay.

The question is did this guy cross the line. Or even better--where do you draw the line. The way some of you talk I think you don't draw any line at all.
Photon_Got_Mad
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Photon_Got_Mad,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:47 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
"Also in his possession was a list of several vendors he had either visited or was about to visit, the source says."

How stupid, are you, lightreading?

Is this a common sense for everyone to attend a show having a plan what you want to see? Otherwise why people want to go to a trade show?

Also, in some messages, it kept on insisting that he broke into the vendor's booth in after hrs and dismantled the box and took pictures. I did not see a word on lightreading's report, these type of people twisting the story is the real criminal.
Stevery
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Stevery,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:47 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
eom
Photon_Got_Mad
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Photon_Got_Mad,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:47 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
for constantly exposing any dirt Huawei is involved. There are millions of lawsuites among the big companies concerning IP rights, patents, bla bla. I did see any report but the Cisco vs Huawei one. Can you tell me how many companies Lucent filed against, I bet it is more than 50. If taking a picture is a crime, how come "he was asked to leave the area" is all the punishment?

You guys are simply nuts!

Some people simply cannot accept the fact that there is a strong company in high tech coming from China, kicking ass. But he is perfectly OK with the made-in China low-cost products he is happy to buy from WalMart but he is not happy to see one day he has to buy other high tech gears from China. This is simply stupid.
coreghost
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coreghost,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:48 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap


1) His photography occured after-hours in the
booth of another vendor. While equipment at
tradeshows is public during exhibit hours, there
is no rule that allows people to sneak into
competitor's booths after hours and dismantle
equipment for photographs.

2) Its not political, its the level of stupid
amaturish behavior from a very poorly run company
(Huawei) that gives this a high profile.
Huawei's past behavior includes stealing source
code, copying pages from the documentation of
another vendor and outright ignoring patents.
And when asked nicely (and quietly) to stop,
they had a good laugh and ignored them until
they got dragged into court.

3) The Chinese. This is not a chinese problem,
its a huawei problem. Nobody is going to take
seriously the idea that just because he is chinese
that he didn't understand that it was wrong to
run around booths after hours with a badge that
has an amaturishly wrong company name and his
own name wrong as well.

4) People do photograph at trade shows. To get
security called (as in this case), you have to
go way beyond just taking photographs. You
usually have to be doing something so incredibly
stupid and unexplainable that you can't walk
away. Sneaking into booths after hours and
tearing apart equipment will qualify.

5) Sure. Figuring out competitive information
goes on all the time at trade shows and even
stealing goes on, but if you do it in an amaturish
way and get caught, you (and the company) get
to suffer the consequences. Given Huawei has
a terrible reputation already, doing something
as silly as this and getting caught is beyond
explanation.

markjohn20
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markjohn20,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:49 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
"I really like chinese engineers; however, it is a part of the culture, I guess."

Yep, I absolutely agree. I lived in Asia for 8 years (including 4 in Taiwan, and loads of time in mainland China), I speak Mandarin (though not as well as I used to), have many close Chinese friends, and I have to say that the culture is just different (and *most* of it is absolutely fascinating).

<though (now)="" (the="" a="" all="" are="" big="" china="" culture="" cultures="" different="" ethnic="" even="" experience="" from="" group="" han)="" have="" i="" in="" itself="" largest="" my="" place!).="" pretty="" province="" say="" similar="" that="" the="" there="" they="" though,="" to="" whichever="" within="" {it's="">

The (mainland) Chinese do not, I believe, see this kind of thing as anything really underhand - Chinese companies will steal off each other given the chance too (but western companies generally offer a more tempting target).

So, if you are dealing with mainland Chinese companies, don't be surprised if things get stolen - just take precautions *if possible*!!

Mark
</though>
lightbeer
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lightbeer,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:49 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Kinda funny but I came across the same thing when I was working the booth at SuperComm. At the time I worked for a Japanese company and we had one of our products behind plexiglass. A chap from another Japanese vendor was walking the booth and asking all kinds of questions. I turned my back for a second to do something and when I turned back I caught the guy trying to take the screws out that were holding the plexiglass in place.

Of course I escorted the guy out of the booth but he was back in short order trying to sneak around camera in hand. It was pretty entertaining for me since you know how boring booth duty is.

The funny thing is the product was all smoke and mirrors anyway with the real electronics sitting in a locked closet several feet away.
marc_goofy
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marc_goofy,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:50 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Hi Guy,

Ever heard of reverse engineering ? Ask your colleagues with high-tech american companies, they will explain you : it is part of the *Product Marketing 101*. Every single US firm in the industry - whatever it is, Automotive, Aerospace/Defense, Telecoms, etc. - does it. Don't get me wrong : every single company on Earth does it.

Now, about Supercomm, Huawei, and this poor guy :
G«ů Product Marketing @ Tradeshows, rule #1 : every single product on display is supposed to be public. If you want to show a confidential product or technology, do it in a private room somewhere nearby the exhibition, and disclose it under NDA to invited VIPs (generally, strategic target and/or loyal customers).
So, please think again :
a) if this major equipment manufacturer doesn't want his product to be on a photo, then don't put it on display.
b) if this big guy doesn't want his product to open during a tradeshow, then do a better industrial design job.
c) it seems to me that this affair is more political than pure business-related. Some of the Americans seem to be a bit *nervous* with foreigners at the moment, right ?...

G«ů The Chinese : have you ever been outside the US, in a country where no one speaks english (well, american), whilst yourself don't even know how to say "Hi" ? Imagine you are visiting a tradeshow there, on behalf of your employer. Will you be comfortable with spelling, speaking, do's & don'ts ? Not sure, correct me if i am wrong.
So please, give this poor fellow the chance of his presumption of innocence. And think again : he might be your next boss !!!

Just this, as a conclusion : some years ago, at OFC in San Diego, I think it was back in 1999, the OSA manager came to me on the first morning of the exhibition. She was asking me for help - i am french, and at this time very close to the OSA -, as a french company (which became a big hit some months after, and a big disaster a couple of years later...) just discovered one of its prototypes has been stolen, right there at the show. Guess what : finally, the author of the stealing was an employee of a... US firm, rival of the French on a huge deal with the Military !

So, please : THINK AGAIN.
TIA,
_Marc
Machavelli
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Machavelli,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:51 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
I am surprised Huawei would resort to an amateurish tactic for gathering low yield information. What information can photos of a PCD reveal ?

They would be better off buying a complete system through a 3rd party and then taking the shelf and PCB apart at their leisure.

Tehcnology theft has been going on since the beginning of time in various forms.

When an American B29 was forced to landed on Russian occupied country during WW2, the Russians copied the entire plane in every detail within months, including the aluminum patches and rivets covering the flak holes.

The Japanese were the cleverest at obtaining information. They licensed color TV technology in the 1960's from RCA and got every detail of the technology legally. When the license (and patents) expired a few years later; well the rest is history. Japanese dominate the Color TV market and no TV has been made in the US in the last 25 years.

Mach
IPIPIP
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IPIPIP,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:53 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
A friend of mine is involved working with Colgate.
He mentioned that Colgate's tooth paste and other products have about 70% of Chinese market. The funny thing is that according to him, Colgate pulled out of China a few years ago and do not supply any of those products.


Any you belived what you want to belive? Colgate is a dominated player in China.

http://business-times.asia1.co...
bobcat
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bobcat,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:53 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
>>"Tsk, tsk, tsk..... When will China learn to play fair?"

Here! Here, I rembember when this was the norm in the late eighties and early nineties.
Cisco was an enemy.
Wellfleet was an enemy.
Bay was an enemy.
No one company was safe. Get all the info you could and at that time it was draw diagrams. And take notice of the chipset vendors on the interface or central processing card.
One US company doing it to another US company.
It is still done today, only the stealth technology is better.

>> They should at least have the courtesy of buying a rack before tearing it apart.

Agreed. At least dull the pain a little bit, before making an incision.

>>1000:1 odds the local police, our vaunted home security agency, FBI and CIA will ALL look the other way, as Bush tells them to.

And this is how things get done in the real world. Its not pretty or moral. Welcome to reality.
whyiswhy
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whyiswhy,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:54 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
"Tsk, tsk, tsk..... When will China learn to play fair?"

Not defending Huawei (as anyone who follows LR knows, i am not one of their fans) but this smacks of child-like aping of criminal behavior they see us do: allowing, no encouraging, US international bankers to arbitrage the Yuan to Dollar exchange rate, and the resulting offshoring of US jobs and technology.

I mean under Bush, we are literally giving it away; venture money, technology and jobs! What's a few pictures and engineering notes? I tend to agree with an earlier post: Huawei is really getting cheap. They should at least have the courtesy of buying a rack before tearing it apart. 1000:1 odds the locval police, our vaunted home security agency, FBI and CIA will ALL look the other way, as Bush tells them to.

Vote the greedy traitorous lying bastards out of office!

JMHO

-Why
bobcat
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bobcat,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:54 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap

I read statements like " this is a way of culture"? Please!

Look.., the US did it, to the Russians (back when it was CCCP, and USSR Eastern Block countries, and our own Allies) and did.., and, (do) it as some one stated, in the Motion picture industry (music, gamming) and the fashion industry.., to name a few, rather than just telecom. The obvious one is the defense industry. Especially now.., and it was all about technology.

Don't act like we don't do it. You bet your (american (red, white, and blue, commie)ass we do it. Like it or not. Even if you don't want to hear it. Get real. Companies do it all the time. Sometime everytime someone switches companies. Why is there an NDA?

This is nothing new. This is NOT new territory.
Sometimes (or most (internally)) it is done by Americans.., to further a retirement account. It's about money. A college fund for kids, a retirement fund for mom and pop, and medical expenses (typically). If at all.

Using the presumption of innocence here.

Look this is real and always has been., look at the "72" Olympics if you think about terrorism.
It happened and we forgot because it didn't happen here. Look historically even earlier about espionage. The Romans stole Archecture, and art, and music.

I don't approve of it, but how do you comdemn it when you know our own government or company does it( Northrup(not anymore), Boeing, General Dynamics, etc.). It happens. Sometimes you get caught, sometimes you don't, sometime you just get suddenly blind in one eye. Ask around, you must know someone in defense, fashion, fast food or high-tech. We are here so when it happens here, it is a big ta-doo.

When it happens there, do you hear or read about it? Do Americans read Taiwaneze, Japaneze, or Mandarin, or Panamainian, etc. Its a big world boyz and girls, with big playas. And by the way we rely heavily on French foreign intelligence (and don't forget who gave us the statue of liberty, like every country we helped gave us one) especially for intelligence in African nations (Freakin Legionares (with respect) are in most African nations) and are doing a hell of a job we won't do but throw money at. No oil.., just desert, lions, tigers and, snakes, and Gorillias. Not exactly a be all you can be picture. Unless you are a Bioligist, Botonist, or zooligist.

Damn too bad we didn't listen to the French about Cambodia and, Viet Nam. They were there first.

So.., do you care? They (Asians) invented gun powder, silk, and reverse engineering to an art form. So we do it, (we did it to the German rocket program) then they do it second, and so on.

Sometimes, the other-way around. We kept Russian Mig jets for their turbine engines and radar technology, and ships (subs), (just like Iran to the Brits.) and technical stuff just because of the opportunity. It's not about people unless.., you convert them. And don't justify it. It has nothing to do with justice or god. (Two wrongs don't make a right. It just makes buisness sense.)

So be innovative, protect where and when you can and dream on. Change passwords, and don't leave equipment unattended. Pretty basic and, pretty sound.

But stop insulting my intelligence. We're still fighting Castro's Cuba, and North Korea, for cryin' out loud. So much for being a super power. Russia is still fighting, Gerogia, Groznyy, and Chechnnya. Sometimes you need a smaller hammer. Right tool for the right job

Say whaaat!

Some 30+ years fighting the Cuban missle crisis and it still feels like yesterday to you??? Oliver North, and others did a job we thought was dirty and, disgusting and, un-American (B&W Tv, and Reagen are dead). Get a better arguement than "it's their culture".
I'll sell ya a bridge not even the Brits.., wanted.
Oh yea, don't forget the beer brewmiester spies, gotta love those guys..
Brew on. Brew on.


dpb
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dpb,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:54 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Not sure what all the flap is about, since every company gathers competitive intelligence one way or another at trade shows. With SMT components on multilayer circuit boards today, what good is a photograph going to do. It's not like they'll take a picture and come up with a working schematic.

Very true, however, you can get a pretty good idea of the capabilities of a product from the off the shelf components used. If they did not do their own chip design you have an insight into framers, fpga gate density, network processors etc. Ignoring software it at least gives you a baseline for competitive info -- copying no.

The big question is how did he yank out boards with the booth bunnies around? If they were out on display they are fair game.

-David Bannister
lighten up!!
50%
50%
lighten up!!,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:55 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Not sure what all the flap is about, since every company gathers competitive intelligence one way or another at trade shows. With SMT components on multilayer circuit boards today, what good is a photograph going to do. It's not like they'll take a picture and come up with a working schematic. I think these people are becoming too paranoid. Yes, I agree IP theft is a problem, but taking pictures, gimme a break. Every company wants to know about its competition and competitive intelligence gathering is one of the main attractions at trade shows. You'd be naive to think that people go there to collect pens and lollypops.
Upside_again
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Upside_again,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:55 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
It's not sensational until we blame Huawei and the chineese? This stuff has been going on for years and years. I remember many a San Jose product manager coming back from a show with pages and pages of competitive notes for the company. He played like he was a customer or analyst (with multiple false badges) and raked all he could get.

stop being silly.

calipers
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calipers,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:56 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
I saw more than one person taking pictures of products, even boards during the exhibit hours. Is that allowed?
Richard Hatch
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Richard Hatch,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:57 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Hell, many startups were concerned about other US-based startup reps doing the same thing back in 1999-2000. That's why you 1) lock your chassis in glass cases 2) take important cards with you 3) use dummy boards on open gear or black out the proprietary chip names 4) hire a rent-a-cop to hang out at your booth after-hours. Seems pretty common sense to me.
slayer666
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50%
slayer666,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:57 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
If you think Huawei is the only one doing this think again.

Israeli companies have been known for buying one and making many for years. But you can't say that on TV.

Nortel had a group (as do most companies) that pull apart competitors products to analyze assembly, components and anything else they could find out.

As a start-up, we sent an optical module for eval to JDS, but never got it back because they ripped it apart!

So, lesson here is don't leave stuff hanging around at trade shows, don't ship single units to competitors, or stick your head in the sand and pretend it doesn't happen.

BTW...done it myself on more than one occasion! Afterall, copying is the sincerest form of flattery.

And yes I have worked with Chinese Engineers and some are excellent, and some are A-Holes just like every other racial group, including WASPs.

Wasn't it TI who traced back their technology theft to French Agents? Wanna buy an Exocet?

Good story though!
oni_guy
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oni_guy,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:57 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap




What "famous excident"? Where did you go to your
grade school, dude?

Why do you like Chinese engineers if they will
just steal?

I really like chinese engineers; however, it is a part of the culture, I guess. Stealing intelectual property is absolutely normal in China.
One of my previous companies was involved in a famous excident. The chineese engineer stole designs and drawings from his large company to join our startup. FBI has been looking for him for last 6 years or so.

Normal component/module companies never send any samples to Huawei, even hermetically packaged.
Balet
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Balet,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:57 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
A friend of mine is involved working with Colgate.
He mentioned that Colgate's tooth paste and other products have about 70% of Chinese market. The funny thing is that according to him, Colgate pulled out of China a few years ago and do not supply any of those products.
Balet
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50%
Balet,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:58 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
I really like chinese engineers; however, it is a part of the culture, I guess. Stealing intelectual property is absolutely normal in China.
One of my previous companies was involved in a famous excident. The chineese engineer stole designs and drawings from his large company to join our startup. FBI has been looking for him for last 6 years or so.

Normal component/module companies never send any samples to Huawei, even hermetically packaged.
bigbangtheory
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bigbangtheory,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:58 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
This guy was _probably_ acting alone (they couldn't be that stupid, could they?). But it brings up the fact that the Chinese operate very differently than people from other cultures. I've seen it over and over in 20+ years in the industy. I'm sure I will be accused of being a racist, but they will stop at nothing to get what they want.
-BB
OptixCal
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OptixCal,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:59 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
"The head of the French equivalent of the CIA..." There's a contradiction in terms, isn't it!
digerato
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50%
digerato,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:59 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
"Not sure what would someone accomplish by taking a few pictures. It usually does not tell you anything other than blinking LEDs. Of course I am not sure how advanced these cameras are."

Dude, he was pulling cards out of the chassis, removing any covering or mechanical stuff that got in the way, and photographing the circuit boards.

Digerato
Yao
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Yao,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:59 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
I think Lightreading should reveal the other party's name too. This way it sounds like a fare news.
Abby
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Abby,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:30:59 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
This is just plain silly. If you consider the fact that Huawei could easily hire someone in the U.S. with the knowledge and skills to match whatever this employee's curiosity was, they have got to be more emabarrassed than anything!
vapa
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vapa,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:31:00 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
This is definitely new low for Huawei. And to let these guy compete internationally with other companies who spend tons of money on R&D (in-house or through acquisitions)..... Tsk, tsk, tsk..... When will China learn to play fair? Before it was designer knockoffs, now world-class telecom gear knowoffs. I wonder how much money is being lost to those knockoffs (both in fashion industry and telecom). Isn't there international court system somewhere?

opticalwatcher
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50%
opticalwatcher,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:31:00 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
"He says this is his first time traveling outside of China and he was not aware that photography was prohibited on the Supercomm show floor."

He didn't know he wasn't allowed to sneak around after hours, going to various booths, pulling boards out of chassis (probably without static protection) to take pictures and take notes.



opticalwatcher
50%
50%
opticalwatcher,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:31:00 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
The spying threat used to be the Russians and Americans trying to discover each other's military secrets. This is a new era where governments are using their spies to help out national industries.

The head of the French equivalent of the CIA was the first to announce this policy about 10 years ago.

Modern day James Bond's are now found at tradeshows! I certainly hope that the Supercomm folks have contacted the FBI.
cyber_techy
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50%
cyber_techy,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:31:00 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Not sure what would someone accomplish by taking a few pictures. It usually does not tell you anything other than blinking LEDs. Of course I am not sure how advanced these cameras are.



Sources close to the situation say the Huawei worker was caught at a competitor's booth where he was examining circuit boards taken from the vendor's displayed gear and taking photographs of the company's products.

Supercomm security was called and the vendor confiscated the Huawei worker's camera Memory Sticks and took photocopies of his passport, visa, and several pages of notes. On the worker's exhibitor badge, the company's name was listed as "Weihua," what one vendor described as an attempt to obscure his employer. Supercomm management stripped the worker of his credentials and told him to leave the area.

The employee -- a technical engineer named Yibin Zhu -- says the incident is a misunderstanding. Zhu spoke to Light Reading through an interpreter on Thursday at Huawei's Supercomm meeting room. He says this is his first time traveling outside of China and he was not aware that photography was prohibited on the Supercomm show floor.

digerato
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digerato,
User Rank: Light Beer
12/5/2012 | 1:31:01 AM
re: Huawei in Spying Flap
Huawei used to buy at least one of a competitor's product before duplicating it, but it seems that they now want to avoid even that expense.

Or perhaps this was just another "rogue employee".

Digerato
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