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Optical/IP

Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers

Cisco Systems Inc. (Nasdaq: CSCO) is all over the news map this morning, as it has four big routing announcements involving its flagship core router, the CRS-1. The company has revealed some CRS-1 customers, a partnership with Fujitsu, a strategic answer to Juniper Networks Inc.'s (Nasdaq: JNPR) Infranet Initiative, and its long-awaited half-sized version of the CRS-1. Here are the details on each development:
  • Cisco is finally naming some users of the CRS-1, after much speculation by analysts (see Cisco Stumps for CRS-1).

    The marquee name is Softbank, which is "going through a massive deployment of CRS-1s" for its YahooBB service, says Suraj Shetty, director of marketing for Cisco's routing technology group. Cisco won't give specifics, but Shetty says the number of chassis being used here is in the "strong double digits." The deployment has already begun and will be done in "months, not years," he says.

    That's the only solid telecom deployment Cisco is citing. The Pittsburgh Supercomputing Center (PSC) is another customer being announced today, noteworthy because it is using the OC768 interfaces -- which, incidentally, performed quite well in a recent test sponsored by Light Reading (see 40-Gig Router Test Results).

    Other CRS-1 customers being announced are Japan's National Institute of Informatics and Telecom Italia SpA (NYSE: TI), the latter being just a trial customer.

  • Cisco has also set up a partnership with Fujitsu Ltd. (OTC: FJTSY; Tokyo: 6702) for high-end routing in Japan. The CRS-1 essentially becomes part of the Fujitsu roadmap, as the company will be pitching it as a next-generation cog for high-end customers. While similar to core router reseller agreements, such as the Nortel arrangement with Avici Systems Inc. (Nasdaq: AVCI; Frankfurt: BVC7), the Fujitsu-Cisco partnership appears to be unique because Fujitsu is a router vendor itself and has been pitching a different company's routers for the core in Japan.

  • Cisco is also launching a program that sounds more than a little similar to Juniper's Infranet Initiative. But Cisco officials insist they're hunting bigger game than Juniper is.

    Cisco's "IP NGN" project -- letters standing for Internet Protocol (IP) Next-Generation Network -- is getting formally launched today. The idea is to create a network that responds to what the user is doing, in hopes of creating more loyalty among service provider customers.

    IP NGN is part of Cisco's ongoing effort to be taken more seriously in telecom circles. Most aspects of the company's CRS-1 core router, including the IOS XR modular operating system, are intended to curry favor with service providers. "Almost 50 percent of our R&D is going toward service provider development," says Cisco's Shetty.

    Identity is a key piece of IP NGN. The network would be able to recognize a user as he shifted from cell phone to PDA to office-bound LAN connection, and would likewise alter quality of service (QOS) and other parameters depending on the application being run. Voice and video traffic would receive priority over delay-insensitive data traffic, for example. "The network would provide resources to the users on demand," like a "customized tollway," Shetty says.

    Partly, the goal is to engender user loyalty. But the IP NGN would also let carriers offer premium services to customers based on their usage patterns, creating new possibilities for generating revenues.

    Cisco tipped its hand in this area with the acquisition of P-Cube, which developed deep packet inspection systems for distinguishing traffic content on the fly. In fact, Cisco is using P-Cube's Service Control Engine line of appliances as examples of what the IP NGN is trying to do (see Cisco Plucks P-Cube for $200M and Cisco Reroutes Traffic Management).

    It all sounds an awful lot like what Juniper is describing with its Infranet. But Cisco insists the Infranet is a subset of what the IP NGN would accomplish.

    "The way we understand it, the Infranet is about building QOS for inter-service-provider networking," Shetty says. "It doesn't talk about how a voice call is connected [when dealing with different providers' networks] or how the video is done."

    Cisco also stresses that it doesn't plan to create a forum similar to Juniper's Infranet Initiative Council; rather, Cisco intends to push its ideas through standards bodies, namely the International Telecommunication Union (ITU) and Alliance for Telecommunications Industry Solutions (ATIS).

  • Finally, as expected, Cisco is announcing a half-sized version of the CRS-1 today (Sources: Cisco Building 'Son of HFR'). The system is an eight-slot chassis, compared with the 16-slot CRS-1, for a throughput of 320 Gbit/s (that's not counting ingress and egress traffic separately). The strategy mimics what Avici and Juniper have done, offering smaller sizes of router to appeal to a wider audience (see Sources: Cisco Building 'Son of HFR', Avici's Incredible Shrinking Router, and Juniper Shrinks Its SuperCore Router).

    The half-sized CRS-1 can be connected in multichassis configurations just as the full CRS-1 can, giving Cisco more options in competing against other multichassis offerings like the Avici TSR or the recently launched Juniper TX Matrix (see Juniper Unveils the TX).

    — Craig Matsumoto, Senior Editor, Light Reading




    SUPERWEBINAR ALERT
    On Thursday, December 9, at 12 noon New York / 9 a.m. California / 5 p.m. London time, during a free hour-long live Web seminar, representatives from Light Reading, EANTC, Agilent, and Cisco will present the results of the Light Reading CRS-1 test and answer questions about them. Telecom Italia will also be participating.

    To register for the December 9 Webinar click here.


  • AAL5 12/5/2012 | 12:59:20 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers myhui said "Can you point out details of tests you refer to?",

    The June 2004 Miercom testing. In the multicast/unicast tests OC-192 Unicast performace on the 640 dropped to 60.7%. The 640 also misordered 45% of the OC192 multicast traffic and 15% of the unicast.

    Architecturally the 640 is not suited for multicast applications.

    AAL5
    pxf 12/5/2012 | 12:59:21 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers Myhui:

    .............
    The ingress port sends the multicast packet once to the fabric, and magically the egress ports (be they on same slot or different slots) can extract this same packet from the fabric. ....
    ................

    This is no magic, rather a stupid design (though not in its entirity). Since Fabric is a shared resource, What you just created are three congestion points. One at the ingress to Fabric, second at the egress from Fabric to PFE and third the TX itself from the PIC.
    and to boot all this, there is no backpressure mechanism :)

    pxf
    myhui 12/5/2012 | 12:59:24 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers AAL5 wrote:

    > the ability for the fabric to duplicate a multicast packet
    > from one Rx card to multiple Tx cards without affecting the
    > throughput of other traffic i.e. unicast traffic.

    That ability is exactly what I claimed: store it as few number of times as possible as the packet travels through the system. On the M series, this was exactly true, in the purest sense. The ingress port sends the multicast packet once to the fabric, and magically the egress ports (be they on same slot or different slots) can extract this same packet from the fabric. Pradeep and others invented the magic part.

    > you can run multicast through a T-640, sending
    multicast
    > traffic to multiple Tx cards without affecting other traffic's
    > throughput?

    Yes. Ingress only needs to send MC packet to fabric once. As for affecting other traffic ... well, if your egress ports are saturated with unicast, then an added load of multicast to those same group of ports will result in dropped packets after the system's queues overflow.

    Can you point out details of tests you refer to?
    AAL5 12/5/2012 | 12:59:35 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers myhui wrote "What if multicast traffic was duplicated as close to the output ports as possible, hence reducing the need to store it (or worse, switch it) multiple times in the fabric?"

    What is not in question is the ability to duplicate traffic on the Tx side, but the ability for the fabric to duplicate a multicast packet from one Rx card to multiple Tx cards without affecting the throughput of other traffic i.e. unicast traffic. I was also under the impression that in the T-640 and M-160 multicast was an issue because they are unable to do this.

    Are you claiming this is not the case, i.e. you can run multicast through a T-640, sending multicast traffic to multiple Tx cards without affecting other traffic's throughput? As from testing results I've seen this is not the case.

    There are a number of good things about the 640 but Multicast and Qos at line rate are two of the weaknesses of this system. Also it will be interesting to see how a 40G interface will be implemented if Juniper is going to use their 2*20Gig engine, i.e. how will they avoid the out of order packet problems that plagued the M-160.

    AAL5
    myhui 12/5/2012 | 12:59:40 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers pxf wrote:

    > Main issue is that switching fabric does not support
    > replication or prioritization of multicast traffic. Need to
    > use PICs which degrades performance.

    Is that the only basis of your claim: that the switch fabric must support replication of multicast traffic, otherwise it won't qualify as providing good support for multicast? What if multicast traffic was duplicated as close to the output ports as possible, hence reducing the need to store it (or worse, switch it) multiple times in the fabric? It seems your initial assumption is wrong.

    > Actually white paper on T's never talk about switch
    > fabrick thourghtput. All it talks about is a nice marketing
    > term "non blocking fabric" :)

    Why not just run tests on the box, and see whether it handles multicast efficiently? The M and T series handle multicast very, very well. I can assure you that. Just test it. You'll be impressed.
    gotman 12/5/2012 | 12:59:52 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers I know, it feels like early 2000 again!! Press releases, product announcement, acquisitions, hiring talent all in one week, after all its the analysts week isn't it? What a better time to dig deep. Wish it was like this across the sector. Its good to leave the year on a high note.
    reoptic 12/5/2012 | 12:59:56 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers So you have to give Cisco credit. Invested a ton in CRS1 and it seems to work as Softbank attests, recruited Tony Li back and just bought up BCN...to say nothing of the Procket team they bought. These guys seem to be running the table on new routing technology and talent. With technical leadership and dominant market share...seems promising...only problem is pricing is going through the floor...
    cyberpunk 12/5/2012 | 12:59:56 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers Hi,
    Your comment is absolutely correct. The CRS-1 is
    a next-generation platform, running the ENA/IOS-XR
    OS, and is totally modular in its delivery. Plus
    the CRS-1 is a distributed single-to-multi-chassis
    box depending upon the type of configuration you
    choose.
    The CRS-1 is definitely not going to be given away
    free, and it is better than anything either Juniper or Avici has to offer at the current time.
    The only box which came close to it was the PRO-800 which was Procket's box, but the CRS-1 has
    more features and is available in different configurations. The half-QT which is 05 Tbits is
    the low-end (entry-level) core box, followed by
    the medium 1 Tbit, 5 Tbit an 10 Tbit systems which
    are the highe end versions.
    Cp.
    Light-bulb 12/5/2012 | 12:59:57 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers Hmm, giving away a CSR in place of a GSR? Hmm, maybe if you only require GE, OC192, and OC768... are there other interfaces for the CRS-1 yet? It's completely a Core box pushing the GSR further to the middle-aggregation...

    Seriously, who ever started this whole thread on giving away CRS-1s is out to lunch.
    marete 12/5/2012 | 12:59:59 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers Any news on Axiowave in Marlborough? It's too bad that they had to lay off so many employees. The management team looks strong, and should have been successful like at Nexabit. Anyone know if they developed ASICs for their product?
    pxf 12/5/2012 | 1:00:01 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers Myhui,

    Main issue is that switching fabric does not support replication or prioritization of multicast traffic. Need to use PICs which degrades performance.

    Actually white paper on T's never talk about switch fabrick thourghtput. All it talks about is a nice marketing term "non blocking fabric" :)

    pxf
    go_ON 12/5/2012 | 1:00:08 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers Can LR please please stop all this crap about Tony Li. No disrespect intended but he is just one of thousands of talented people in the IP industry. Routers are not magical, and he is no magician, so please stop this misplaced hero worship. This has been going on for years, like packets dont get transmitted unless Tony blesses them with his mainframe mind. Gimme a break.

    It would be far more beneficial for LR to talk about emerging deployment and standards in detail rather than this kind of nonsense.

    Is LR merging with Yahoo message boards?
    cyberpunk 12/5/2012 | 1:00:18 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers The actual team that built CRS-1 from ground up
    (the Engineers that is) are really good and very
    talented. They did do a great job and tested the
    guts out of the system. I had the privilege to
    work with them sometime back.
    But the upper management (the ones who were given
    the heave-ho once the Procket guys joined) were
    the real useless honchos who just pushed paper
    and did no real work. Ayman, Waikin, Yerneni and
    Rebecca to name a few. These are the guys who are
    now no longer calling the shots (most of these
    were the Newbridge and Nortel guys) and the ones
    who got promoted now are the ones who actually
    did the good work.
    Cp.
    beowulf888 12/5/2012 | 1:00:20 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers Hey, Ragho:
    There's really no reason to be rude, is there? -- your remark about bending over was uncalled for. The fact that you're being so abusive of other posters doesn't make your arguments any more sound.

    I've been in this business for over 15 years now, and I've seen religious wars come and go. And the CSCO vs JNPR argument is just another religious war. A given JNPR box may, and probably does, outperform a equivalent CSCO box on any number technical fronts -- but that doesn't necessarily make it a slam dunk for a customer to puchase (support, pricing, upgrade path, manageability, etc.).

    And claiming that CSCO doesn't have talented engineers is absolute nonsense. Drink that koolaid at your own risk, especially if you're competing against them...

    cheers,
    --Beo
    beowulf888 12/5/2012 | 1:00:21 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers cyberpunk wrote:
    "Now the interesting thing is that how does Tony
    Bates fare, now that Tony Li is back at the helm."

    Well, Tony seems to be an idividual contributor at the moment with the title "Technical Leader". And he's a couple of levels below Bates.
    routingfool 12/5/2012 | 1:00:22 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers same could be said about a CRS linecard...
    digerato 12/5/2012 | 1:00:23 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers If this Tony rumor is true, my gut feeling is 3 months. The Procket team cannot be reassembled due to internal Cisco politics. Unless Chambers himself steps in and gives Tony a Gold Card.

    You flatter Tony -- if he's really back at Cisco, I expect the router team is hoping he gets a Red Card. After all, who wants to work with an arrogant, manipulative primadonna who believes the ability to write routing code confers Exclusive Access To The Truth?

    Digerato
    tsat 12/5/2012 | 1:00:23 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers
    Just wait until you want to buy a PIC interface
    card! Chassis are cheap...

    -tsat

    > just to be fair, I had Juniper practically giving
    > me a couple of T640s at Switch prices, trust me I
    >don't mind one bit, hopefully I can get a CRS-1,
    >the 1/2 size model from Cisco at the same price :-)
    myhui 12/5/2012 | 1:00:25 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers pxf wrote:

    > - Very poor Multicast support on T640s.

    Can you elaborate?

    Under what test conditions?
    andropat 12/5/2012 | 1:00:26 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers gotman,

    this will be good for Juniper in the end. Now let the fun begin as these same people start to play with ios-xr. talk about mysteries!

    pat
    routingfool 12/5/2012 | 1:00:26 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers just to be fair, I had Juniper practically giving me a couple of T640s at Switch prices, trust me I don't mind one bit, hopefully I can get a CRS-1, the 1/2 size model from Cisco at the same price :-)
    gotman 12/5/2012 | 1:00:28 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers >i wouldn't doubt the bugs found today would have >never been found early on.

    This is very true, youGÇÖll see people use the technology to the fullest, even very mature technology. So corner cases are being uncovered. SP/enterprises and commercials are really going beyond the major features and into the little feature knobs to get the bang for the buck and are uncovering mysteries.
    AAL5 12/5/2012 | 1:00:28 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers 5urf5hop said "Depends. If Tony is able to resurrect his Procket hardware and team, then 5 years. If not, then 2 months. Last I heard, the Procket eng-team has been decentralized and reassigned. Morale is low. Most Procket developers are waiting for the 1 year vest, then they'll jump ship. The $89M Procket designs are collecting dust"

    One of the reasons the designs are collecting dust is apart from the NPU there is nothing there that makes the Procket technology worth replacing CRS hardware or IOX software. The Procket guys did a great job of creating a core router with 40G capable per slot, with no VOQing and a flexible NPU. They really delivered what they intended to build.

    Architecturally at the system/hardware level they are a few things that make it better than the GSR architecture, but I don't think it was the Procket guys intention of building a box such as CRS. The switching architecture is not meant to scale the same as CRS. Also the software architecture although it had advantages over IOS does not solve the same problems as IOS-XR does.

    The NPU was and probably still is leading edge stuff, hopefully some of the technology of this will see the light of day again sometime.

    AAL5
    vvdip1 12/5/2012 | 1:00:28 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers I heard that they are giving CRS-1's to customers that originally ordered GSR's so they could get them out in the field. Who would turn that deal down? They can't sell it on its own merits, so they give it away and lose money. I guess you can do that when you are the big kid on the block.
    routed 12/5/2012 | 1:00:29 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers What makes you think that the Procket team (that joined after CRS-1 is released) is smarter than the team that actaully built CRS-1 from ground up?

    Low Morale? From what? Being not doing any work for last few months? I had the pleasure of meeting some of them. Trust me, I could guess why procket failed.

    Internal Politics? Last time I checked, The procket guys were given key positions in CRS-1 team over the guys who actually built the CRS-1.

    So if any of them want to leave, nobody in Cisco is going to shed a tear.
    andropat 12/5/2012 | 1:00:31 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers candc,

    i'll give that to you. they definitely HAD the best. they still HAVE some great guys but maybe playing fields have evened out and there has been some attrition.

    yes some have checked out completely and some are maybe in more of a consulting role. i wouldn't doubt the bugs found today would have never been found early on.

    pat
    5urf5hop 12/5/2012 | 1:00:32 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers >Will Light Reading offer a pool for
    >guessing how long Tony will last back at Cisco?

    Depends. If Tony is able to resurrect his Procket hardware and team, then 5 years. If not, then 2 months. Last I heard, the Procket eng-team has been decentralized and reassigned. Morale is low. Most Procket developers are waiting for the 1 year vest, then they'll jump ship. The $89M Procket designs are collecting dust.

    If this Tony rumor is true, my gut feeling is 3 months. The Procket team cannot be reassembled due to internal Cisco politics. Unless Chambers himself steps in and gives Tony a Gold Card.
    gotman 12/5/2012 | 1:00:32 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers The flame you see is my motivation, what motivates me even more is this technology!!!

    Happy to share with you technical muscle on IOS-XR, I can't do that when I'm bent over... To bad you have to resort to this sort of language, doesn't matter where you work!!

    opt-out 12/5/2012 | 1:00:32 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers Will Light Reading offer a pool for guessing how long Tony will last back at Cisco?
    opt-out 12/5/2012 | 1:00:33 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers > Well, the BCN guys probably laughed their way
    > to the bank in Juniper's case also, as most of
    > these engineers seem to be pretty senior (see
    > BCN's website) and assuming they indeed did
    > some of the initial work on the M-Series.

    There is a mixture of those who were involved with the M and those who were not. They laughed all the way to the bank on leaving Cisco once, laughed as they left Juniper, and will laugh when they leave Cisco the second time.

    Juniper will be just fine. There is still plenty of solid engineering talent there.

    It is a clear statement of just how weak the engineering talent is at Cisco has become that they cannot field 20 engineers inside who can cook up an operating system for a midrange router.
    Sisyphus 12/5/2012 | 1:00:33 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers
    All this adolescent grudges between Juniper and Cisco folks. relax guys, you don't have to totally become borg-like creatures just because you're on some companies payroll. These forums would be more enriching if there'd be less knee jerk response, and more exchange on technology facts.

    To my knowledge, both Juniper and Cisco have some very smart people in their team, and nor the CRS-1 nor the TX represent the abominations in mediocre engineering some here would make us want to believe. You can bet both were developed with direct input from customers willing and eager to deploy the products.

    Neither of the two will gain 100% market dominance and obliterate the other - at least that's something the Cisco and Juniper folk ought to realize by now.

    I also think it's accurate to say that while the CRS-1 was initially way over-engineered, and the process to turn the project into a more realistic concept delayed the program to a degree that at some point seemed surreal, the Juniper T concept was faster to market, yet took a few (pefectly valid) architectural shortcuts to establish itself in the market first as a "Terabit" incumbent. The advantage the T has is incumbency, the advantage the C has is more architectural potential for the future. And Juniper is sure to have further upgrades up its sleeve.

    It'll continue to be entertaining to witness this battle in high end routing, however people from either company writing in here should take a clue from their management and keep the discussion -for all the sword rattling- gentlemany.
    h4oooo 12/5/2012 | 1:00:33 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers can not image that!

    ragho 12/5/2012 | 1:00:34 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers gotman,

    You do make some valid points in many of your posts, but you're heavily biased and I'd for one point out that you're acting that way because you got a flame under your ass.

    Sure, Cisco is not to be taken lightly. Only time will tell whether the core will be won performance and scale, high availability, bribery or just pure marketing muscle.

    But in the meantime, if IOS-XR is so good, share with us some technical details. And bend over, I got some KY jelly for you.

    -r

    PS. And no, I don't work for Juniper. Stop imagining things and don't assume everyone works on the other side of the fence.
    russ4br 12/5/2012 | 1:00:35 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers The BCN guys are cutting loose as soon as possible, and laughing all the way to the bank. Not a bad deal for a "company" founded 4 months ago, with no product.

    Well, the BCN guys probably laughed their way to the bank in Juniper's case also, as most of these engineers seem to be pretty senior (see BCN's website) and assuming they indeed did some of the initial work on the M-Series.

    But we have to wonder whether they are really as brilliant, one-of-a-kind, and god-like as claimed ... If so, who's developing the embedded code in M/T now that the BCN guys are gone? Who is looking after the complex multi-chassis LC/system interactions (does Juniper trees grow engineers)? ... Certainly not the BGP/protocols or JUNOS/UNIX or ASIC guys. You need infrastructure guys to do that.

    Certainly many talented engineers will stay at Juniper working on the core products, just for the fun and challenge of it. But it is ill-advised to discount a company with as broad an engineering ranks, and proven track record, as Cisco.


    -russ

    joke 12/5/2012 | 1:00:35 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers That is why we don't see Tony discusses this kind of topic anymore in lightreading.
    cyberpunk 12/5/2012 | 1:00:35 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers Just received this news from a friend at Cisco.

    Tony Li has re-joined Cisco, and is now a leading
    light in the HFR Business Unit, the one that makes
    the CRS-1. His employee number too is the same as
    the one he had before, which is 483.

    Now the interesting thing is that how does Tony
    Bates fare, now that Tony Li is back at the helm.

    Cp.
    let_there_be_routing 12/5/2012 | 1:00:36 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers Cisco engineers are so great that Chambers decides to spin in < 20 JNPR S/W engineers for $200 million so that they can finally build a worthwhile router. The BCN guys are cutting loose as soon as possible, and laughing all the way to the bank. Not a bad deal for a "company" founded 4 months ago, with no product.

    BTW, how many Procket engineers are really left at Cisco?
    ChatEnChapeau 12/5/2012 | 1:00:37 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers Pat,

    You said: "you are right. bcn has some good guys.. different types of s/w engineers in differing fields in my opinion but no doubt sharp guys. procket as well.. good guys over there. but as a whole, i feel juniper has some of the overall best, proven, engineers."

    "Has" or "Had"? Are they still at Juniper? Are they still writing code? Are they still testing code (don't forget that side of the eng team)? Or have they checked out? I'm seeing some real bonehead bugs in recent JunOS.

    I was sure once, but not any more.

    C-en-C
    andropat 12/5/2012 | 1:00:40 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers gotman,

    you are right. bcn has some good guys.. different types of s/w engineers in differing fields in my opinion but no doubt sharp guys. procket as well.. good guys over there. but as a whole, i feel juniper has some of the overall best, proven, engineers.

    as far as ios-xr. I have not only seen it, but have tested it. i do like it. i do feel it has some great potential. it looks more like junos in my opinion.. go figure. but finally after geez 4 plus years cisco has been able to create an OS more inline with JUNOS. it will take a while yet though for the features to catch up and stability to be worked out. great job cisco.

    pat
    sgamble 12/5/2012 | 1:00:42 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers I think you will have to wait for Sprint and perhaps Cogent through some kind of give-away for Cisco to announce a large SP deployment. Notice I said deployment and not purchase :)

    I am a little surprised the marketing machine didn't send a few into Cogent just to say they are deployed. And with their long relationship with Sprint I thought this would be the first announcement. Wonder how the Sprint trial is going?

    This new machine sounds awesome. I want one! Suddenly my GSRs arent so impressive ;)

    Steve.
    gotman 12/5/2012 | 1:00:43 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers tekweeny you idiot, thats my Sir name, not my nic name you fool... only a fool like yourself can come up with nothing better then 'drinking kool-aid!' rid yourself of that vocab, aim higher.

    When you do aim higher and you get there, you'll notice in Asia no decision is made on brotherhood or business relationships ONLY!! They do have business ethics above all, specially in Japan. They have BMTs, trails.. etc.. and who passes goes
    to the stage of talking $$$. Softbank will not spend an extra 10M if it could avoid it.

    The CRS in this instance must have offered softbank the best solution at the best price... The only war you guys are fighting today in the core is the price war, the feedback is the technical war goes to cisco, the TX release confirms this.
    tekweeny 12/5/2012 | 1:00:43 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers I'll be glad to tell you how I got my options once you tell me what relevance it has to Softbank or CRS wins.

    Gotman (I prefer Gotwomen myself...)

    I think you drank WAY to much Cisco kool-aid!
    tekweeny 12/5/2012 | 1:00:43 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers I went through the Cisco annual report for 2004, It clearly says Cisco has invested in the order of 800M US$ in Softbank. So Cisco hold investments in Softbank. ;-)

    net_dude

    I wonder what promopted you to do that. Anyhow, talk to your buddies at juniper about this fight. It was a hard drawn out battle and if you were any closer to this deal you would know it was unbiased.


    Do what? GIve me a break. If it was really hard for Cisco to win, after the supposed $800M infusion from Cisco mentioned above, then, that really does prove the CRS-1 sucks, especially being a Japanese company where business relationships and respect are paramount, even above family.

    Happy you still have your job for a little while longer, eh? I have heard Cisco tosses out the whole sales team when they lose a deal to Juniper. OUCH!

    The whole point of the sales cycle is to create bias so the product the sales team is selling, is selected, you idiot.


    -T
    issey 12/5/2012 | 1:00:44 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers I wouldn't be surprised if SBB does get heavy discounts on the CRS-1..
    issey 12/5/2012 | 1:00:44 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers One poster mentioned that SOftbank and Cisco have history together.. That is so true, SOn-san helped Cisco corner the Japanese market way back when..
    IF Softbanks network isn't the biggest in the world then I don't know what..
    They have tonnes of Cat6509, GSR in their network, easily the biggest network in the world in terms of Network devices and not IP addresses.
    gotman 12/5/2012 | 1:00:45 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers >who knows SP routing better than the s/w >engineers at Juniper

    Ahh really? is that what makes a good company? the s/w engineers? A few would agree with you.
    If they did, still a ton of them are at cisco, just look at whats being filed daily, a ton of sharp guys came from Procket and the better once at jnpr are now at BCN.

    andropat you've been around for a while, so apologize to yourself about the previous post. I expect better from you.. Putting BS aside now, talk to your cisco folks about getting your hands on some IOS-XR sw. It rocks.
    gotman 12/5/2012 | 1:00:45 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers I'm glad you know how to get your head around a web page... Whats CRS-1 got to do with my options? I'll be glad to tell you how I got my options once you tell me what relevance it has to Softbank or CRS wins. Are all JNPR fans all that shallow when they loose?

    At lease I know my options are from a company that's fighting competition at all fronts and beating them, I'm proud of that.. Whats the saying? no one got fired for buying csco?
    andropat 12/5/2012 | 1:00:47 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers gotman,

    who knows SP routing better than the s/w engineers at Juniper? they are mostly old-school cisco guys who were around doing IOS dev in the early days of the internet.

    how much cisco stock do you own? or is it all the gifts you get from them and strip clubs they take you to? come on now! be honest. your name though is "got man". that worries me.

    Pat
    Honestly 12/5/2012 | 1:00:48 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers gotman,
    on the post page on LR it says ignore author :right after your user name. Will do LR, thanks for the intelligent advice. Hey got how far underwater are your Cisco options.??? HEE HE. BTW, not any ones employee, just a smart investor that owns a lot of Juniper stock.
    gotman 12/5/2012 | 1:00:48 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers net_dude

    I wonder what promopted you to do that. Anyhow, talk to your buddies at juniper about this fight. It was a hard drawn out battle and if you were any closer to this deal you would know it was unbiased.
    net_dude 12/5/2012 | 1:00:48 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers I went through the Cisco annual report for 2004, It clearly says Cisco has invested in the order of 800M US$ in Softbank. So Cisco hold investments in Softbank. ;-)
    Honestly 12/5/2012 | 1:00:49 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers So the big Crash -1 got some existing customer to deploy and Telecom Italia WIRELESS DEVISION is a trial and an LR test supporter with small packets, I might add. Oh I am blown away and going to heaven, NOT. As for NGN, isn't that a conference in Boston.? It is a total rip off of the Infranet Initiative Council - see www.infranet.org. IIC has said, for over a year that it will drive its reccomendations through standards bodies. So as in everything mentioned on the CRS-1 today and in the past, Cisco is just me too. A day late and a dollar short. Cisco, any original ideas there anymore. Didn't think so. Nice validation of everything Juniper does
    gotman 12/5/2012 | 1:00:49 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers Honestly

    Unfortunately thatGÇÖs how a juniper employee would feel now.. Yes your bleeding and it hurts I know!! Time to come off that horse now... Sorry for the pain caused, CSCO turns to work with the SPs who want to be everything over IP. Juniper can't cut it. Junipers has a lot to catch up on core advances, both HW & SW, the heat is ON!
    ChatEnChapeau 12/5/2012 | 1:00:50 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers Fibre Bundle:
    "When noting a sale to a research institute or university, has Cisco disclosed the amount of any donation or grant that it has made to said university."

    I believe several T640s ended up (initially) in research networks. E.g., I think Telefonica had a T640 early, but it was really for the European research network.

    Procket's big win was ARNET.

    So fudging the lines between provider sales and research networks is not unexpected where announcements are concerned.

    C-en-C
    DSLGuy 12/5/2012 | 1:00:50 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers I see it much more likely where CSCO says, "you buy x widgets, and we'll kick down x number of CRS's". Although, is that really "sales"? I'm anxious to bang on one myself, but as a scientist first, I don't believe ANY VENDOR until I see it with my own eyes and pass traffic.

    test'em till they smoke or reset, then they're done. Kudos to any third party unaffiliated test group that publishes their results.
    Fibre Bundle 12/5/2012 | 1:00:50 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers <<research education="" is="" nice...="">>

    When noting a sale to a research institute or university, has Cisco disclosed the amount of any donation or grant that it has made to said university.

    i.e. How can we know that it is a real sale, and not a quid pro quo?

    FB</research>
    pxf 12/5/2012 | 1:00:51 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers Beowulf,

    Thats correct GSR/Cat6K have poor IPv6 support but IOX has stable IPv6 implementation. Besides that
    IOX or CRS1 have some few more scoring points

    - Performance does not degrade with features like ACL (remains flat) where as T640 degrades linear.

    - Very poor QoS support on T640s
    This is one of main reasons of Juniper's infranet initiative. Diversion and catch up.

    - Very poor Multicast support on T640s.

    But I think right now what we are seeing from Cisco is a well oiled marketting campaign to alter (read correct :)) the market perception about cisco and high end routers.
    beowulf888 12/5/2012 | 1:00:52 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers Doc:
    Good point. But, it does take a longer sales cycle to sell into the SP space than the Enterprise space. I suspect we won't see any major SP CRS-1 sales for at least 6 months (and probably longer). So Juniper still has (or is it had?) a chance to catch up with the CRS-1. You'd think Juniper would have been ready with a strong comeback to the CRS-1 -- since Juniper had the momentum in the SP space. Or maybe they just believed their own marketing spin that the HFR was just Cisco FUD. I'm a little surprised, though -- the TX offering looks a little tepid compared to the CRS-1.

    Disclaimer: I tend to prefer Cisco over Juniper, but I've worked with CSCO equipment a lot longer.

    PS: But I'm surprised none of the Juniper supporters have mentioned JNPR's IPv6 support. Many of my contacts within Cisco fear that more than anything else about JNPR -- Cisco still doesn't have a good response in GSR/Cat6K lines to JNPR's excellent IPv6 support -- which will hurt their Asian prospects (where IPv6 is a given).

    --Beo
    DocGonzo 12/5/2012 | 1:00:53 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers The CRS appears to be a nice piece of engineering; kudos to the Cisco team.

    These customer announcements however are not overly impressive. I do not see any significant interent backbone wins here. Research/Education is nice, and the Softbank install sounds impressive. But, until this thing is pervasively installed in large quantities in a major player's backbone it isn't proven. Same goes for the TX from Juniper.

    Cisco has proven they can engineer hardware that works. I believe the real question mark is how ready for prime time is IOS XR? Only time will tell. When they do get it right, it should be a good achievement for the entire industry.

    Doc

    BTW, Cisco and Softbank have a long history together.

    tsat 12/5/2012 | 1:00:53 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers
    Anyone who questions the might of Cisco
    is an idiot.

    -tsat
    routed 12/5/2012 | 1:00:55 AM
    re: Cisco Scores CRS-1 Customers Isn't this your typical execuse sequence?

    1. Cisco no way can develop a high end router. They don't know how to build one.
    2. Their annoucement of CRS-1 is a joke. That product is too big/hot and nobody knows whether it works.
    3 In any case who needs a terabit router. Our T640 is enough for the rest of the century.
    4. LR tests and verifies CRS-1 sucessfully? Common nobody in LR knows what they are talking about!
    5. Our TX is going to kick CRS-1 butt (after realizing that they do need a Terabit router).

    6. What do you mean CRS-1 is actually sold in double dight nmumbers? Tell me its Cisco marketing machine again right?

    I mean what next? Start preparing for your next execuse. Because CRS is here.
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