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Optical/IP

BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers

BT Group plc (NYSE: BT; London: BTA) ended months of speculation today by naming the companies that will supply the equipment for its 21st Century network, or 21CN (see BT Names 21CN Suppliers ).

The biggest shock is that British vendor Marconi Corp. plc (Nasdaq: MRCIY; London: MONI) is NOT among the eight key suppliers, each of which will bring a range of partners. Only yesterday, Marconi was tipped as a "certain" 21CN winner by Dresdner Kleinwort Wasserstein (see Analyst: Marconi in Line for 21CN ).

Marconi's share price plunged 44 percent on the news this morning, dropping to 270.5 pence, from 482 pence.

Other highlights include the involvement of Chinese vendor Huawei Technologies Co. Ltd. in the access and transmission categories, and the notable exclusion of Alcatel (NYSE: ALA; Paris: CGEP:PA) from the access category.

Here's the list of winners:

Access: Multiservice Access Nodes (MSANs)
Fujitsu Telecommunications Europe Ltd., an existing supplier of DSLAMs to BT, is supplying its GeoStream Access Gateway. That choice looks like good news for metro optical vendor Meriton Networks Inc. (see Meriton, Fujitsu Make a Match).

The only other MSAN supplier is Huawei, leaving shortlisted vendors Alcatel and Marconi out in the cold, a decision that will surprise many (see Huawei Picked for BT's 21CN and BT Shuns Marconi for 21CN).

Metro Routers and Switches
Alcatel, Cisco Systems Inc. (Nasdaq: CSCO), and Siemens Communications Group are the chosen ones for the metro nodes (see Alcatel Picked for BT's 21CN, Cisco Picked for BT's 21CN, and Siemens Picked for BT's 21CN).

Alcatel is providing its 7750 Service Router, the former TiMetra IP platform, and its 5620 Service Aware Manager (see Alcatel Eyes Video Market).

Analysts at Lehman Brothers noted that Alcatel's inclusion in the metro category but exclusion from access is "on balance, a slight negative."

Core Routers
No surprises here, as BT will use Cisco and Juniper Networks Inc. (Nasdaq: JNPR) gear, though Juniper isn't named as a preferred supplier.

That honor goes to its partner Lucent Technologies Inc. (NYSE: LU), which will supply Juniper's M320, T640 and TX Matrix routing platforms and its own element management system.

In addition, Lucent's Worldwide Services and Bell Labs divisions will provide "network planning, integration, deployment and support," said the vendor in an official release (see Lucent, Juniper to Supply BT 21CN).

Network Intelligence, or I-node Technology
Ericsson AB (Nasdaq: ERICY) is the sole supplier for systems that BT says "includes softswitches, network intelligence, and bandwidth management capabilities." (See BT Picks Ericsson for 21CN.)

Transmission, Optical Equipment
Ciena Corp. (Nasdaq: CIEN) and Huawei are the winners here. Ciena, which says it is supplying "switching and transmission and Ethernet transport platforms," had been expected to participate (see BT Picks Ciena for 21CN).

Table 1: BT's 21CN Preferred Suppliers
Access Metro Core I-Nodes Transmission
Fujitsu Alcatel Cisco Ericsson Ciena
Huawei Cisco Lucent Huawei
Siemens
  • Access -- the access domain in this context is the aggregation equipment (multiservice access node -- MSANs) which will link BT�s existing access network, initially carrying voice and data services from end users on to the 21CN core IP-based network.
  • Metro nodes provide the routing and signaling functions for the unified 21CN network for voice, data, and video.
  • Core nodes are the high capacity, large scale routers providing cost efficient connections between metro nodes.
  • i-node is where the service execution functionality is located -- in essence the intelligence that controls services. In the 21CN context, this includes softswitches, network intelligence, and bandwidth management capabilities.
  • Transmission includes the optical fiber transport infrastructure that connects all nodes in 21CN but also the electronics that convert the signals carried at high capacity over the cables connecting the MSANs, metro, and core nodes. Much of the optical fibre infrastructure is already in place and today we are announcing the preferred suppliers for the optical electronics.
    Source: BT Group plc


  • The key to BT's decisions appears to be economics. "In order to achieve world class delivery of the programme, the selection of suppliers has been about much more than choosing technology and selecting partners," says BT Wholesale CEO Paul Reynolds in a prepared statement. "The commercial agreements, which the company expects to conclude over the summer, will include open standards and a focus on whole life costs."

    In other words, the margins are razor thin, and Marconi says it didn't make the final selection because it couldn't meet BT's commercial needs.

    "This is a disappointing outcome from a very competitive tender process," said Marconi CEO Mike Parton in a statement. "Our products performed extremely well technically, but we have been unable to meet BT's commercial requirements."

    Marconi notes that it will "continue to supply equipment and services to BT under the various, multi-year frame contracts it has in place."

    Given Marconi's long history with BT, its exclusion will come as a serious blow. The price squeeze will likely have favored Huawei, though, given its reputation for providing decent quality but low-cost technology.

    BT's decisions will have significant implications for all the vendors involved, as the 21CN will provide a shop window into which other major carriers making their own next-generation network plans will peer closely.

    — Ray Le Maistre, International News Editor, Light Reading

    ironccie 12/5/2012 | 3:14:32 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers >Xbar - Juniper is definitely not in decline.

    He's got his, and I've got mine. Meet the decline.

    IronCCIE
    DZED 12/5/2012 | 3:14:34 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers Sounds like Bookham

    Anania: I require stock options, bonuses and freebies. You just get to keep your job, for now, if you're lucky.
    SRILANKA 12/5/2012 | 3:14:35 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers kriens in an interview with forbes said among
    other things that he thinks that the pride the
    emplyees feel working for JNPR is more important
    and worth more than wages and stock options!!
    He also stated that he owns two Austin martins
    a ferrari and mercedes!He sold 0ne million shares
    in Oct. and this month sold 500k shares for a
    total haul of $$35.5 million!
    How come my mouth taste so bitter???
    donniall 12/5/2012 | 3:14:38 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers Does anyone know what the existing supplier profile is - in each of the respective categories (with exception of iNode) - for BT's existing network? So far we know Huawei is a newcomer to Access and Transmission, with Marconi losing in Access (& ????) ....

    Don-
    volkot 12/5/2012 | 3:16:08 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers
    AAL5, comments inline

    >In regards to your query about how IOX will >solve a problem JUNOS cannot let me give a few examples:
    >- H/W, in particular the NP is design to be able >to perform 40G processing of packets with ACLs

    It has absolutely nothing to do with JUNOS vs. IOX

    >I have seen when 5000 filters were applied the T >series router performance drops to less than 1%. >I guess your J-Tree lookup can't handle any more >lookups as its also used for forwarding(?)

    Speaking of hardware forwarding path, you seem to bring a point of TCAM lookup vs. memory search. Judging performance of different tecnhologies is like comparing apples to oranges.

    In your case, I can demonstrate demonstrate a TCAM spillover on any Cisco GSR/7600/CRS linecard with a filter size ranging from 10 to few thousand lines depending on the model.
    Unlike performance degradation, TCAM spillovers are fatal to forwarding.

    >In real customer deployment scenarios they want >to run L3 features, using a T series they are in >for a big surprise.

    You again sound like a marketoid type.
    Who gets a big surprise will depend on the test methodology.

    > Although I have heard the sequencing issues >still are not totally resolved in the 640, it is >possible to get reordered packets

    .. or maybe you heard it wrong

    While not being a huge fan of any aforementioned products, I believe the core lineups are quite comparable. What's much better with Cisco is FUD.
    turing 12/5/2012 | 3:16:31 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers Modular software. What a term, you can update/patch JUNOS in service because its modular! What happens if you have to update the routing table code, or code that the routing table depends on which changes the selection criteria

    So true. I think modular software patching is a marketing hot-button, and makes technical architects feel good. But really it's not sustainable. How does cisco test and support all the permutations of different versions of IOX processes? How do you verify you can upgrade component X at time Y and how it interacts with all the other processes in state Z? It would make the different IOS train problems pale in comparison. And it flies in the face of the kiss principle.

    And really many of the most fundamental processes are inter-dependent, like LDP using IGP, or MPLSte with bGP (or IGP). And of course those interdependent processes are the most likely ones needing to be patched. It's not often you need to patch the SNMP or SSH or other somewhat independent parts. am i missing something?
    turing 12/5/2012 | 3:16:31 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers This really shows Junipers strategy which has been quite successful I do give it to them. Get to the market ASAP with a "good enough" system solution and try to grab the market.

    I think you just described Cisco's strategy. And Microsoft's strategy. And most every successful company's strategy.
    vferrari 12/5/2012 | 3:16:31 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers Comments below from a provider not vendor view:

    "I guess your J-Tree lookup can't handle any more lookups as its also used for forwarding(?). In real customer deployment scenarios they want to run L3 features, using a T series they are in for a big surprise."

    Most people know that's a corner case and all those cisco/meircomm tests are not using real traffic pattern. All you have to do is read the methodology (when documented) IE: all 64 byte packets and other non-real life scenarios like installing millions of routes. Providers using T series know how it works fine with real world traffic patterns/sizes. You can break lots of things once you find the achilles heel. Please...both vendors need to give people more credit when trying to position testing results.

    "Although I have heard the sequencing issues still are not totally resolved in the 640, it is possible to get reordered packets. It will be interesting also when their 40G interface comes out to see how it sequences packets, as gluing 2 20Gig engines together is not going to work! "

    AFAIK the issues were resolved a long time ago once the production HW was released. As for 40G, I would suspect that the 2x20G engines will not be used. It _should_ be a new 40G capable engine but time will tell on this one. :)

    As for the M160 issue, there were some that were annoyed but in general, the traffic pattern and flows to hit that were pretty rare. Very large high speed flows only which most networks do not have. We had and continue to have plenty of them without issue.

    All vendors have issues/bugs. Most vendors' current boxes are fine for real world deployments. Do your testing and pick your poison. :)

    I agree, an exchange without mud slinging!!

    _vic
    ozip 12/5/2012 | 3:16:33 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers Both excellent posts!!

    Re-ordering. Having done a bunch of tests when the M160 came out, the problem was real. At 20% utilization of an OC192 15% of the packets were out of order and it increased to almost 50% at 60% of line rate. But, this was for a single source/dest pair and only affected flows greater than 1G. Although this seems like a small number, the real number of single flows larger than 1G is pretty small, so most operators were not really affected.

    J-Tree. Most of the new generation router vendors use a modified btree algorithm in their lookup engine. You can make these algorithms hit the wall because the engines usually have a fixed tree size (depth & width) based upon memory and loosely coupled to lookup rate. Sounds like you found it. But to acurrately paint a picture you need to mention the number of routes that were being looked-up as these would also be in the btree. So if you had a million routes with 5000 acls, your result would not surprise me. I do question the validity of a test like that! This does not highlight an achitectural issue, to expand the tree size you add more memory, get some clock speed increases from a new silicon process and increase the number of lookup engines in the ASIC. The initial capabilities of the lookup ASIC were probably based on some usage cases and economic issues at design time. As we know, these all change.

    Modular software. What a term, you can update/patch JUNOS in service because its modular! What happens if you have to update the routing table code, or code that the routing table depends on which changes the selection criteria.......... Unfortuanely, you still cant change the tyres on a moving car unless its ontop of a flatbed truck...


    OZIP
    MP_UK 12/5/2012 | 3:16:33 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers
    I think the 'metro node' concept is a collection of functions logically grouped, rather than a specific description of what a box should do. So it doesn't really matter if the metro node comprises one box or a few, as long as there is a stable platform to perform the required functions.

    I imagine you'll find the same thing with the MSAN - doesn't matter if it's all in one box or not, as long as all the required functions can be put in the MSAN space.

    HTH
    xbar 12/5/2012 | 3:16:34 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers Sunfanz,

    Sorry, no experience with Riverstone. The box that we tested and I was very pleased with was the Cisco 10720.

    xbar
    andropat 12/5/2012 | 3:16:34 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers AAL5,

    You are correct in many ways..... Let me simply share some of my thoughts. The M160 was in my opinion somewhat patched together to meet a "time to market" requirement. Juniper was never the incumbent and they needed to provide a solution before cisco... period. Having said that and knowing the re-ordering issues well I feel it was a bit overblown. It absolutely affected customers, however some a lot more than others and even today there are 1000s of M160s passing internet traffic 24/7.

    As far as your ACL test. THIS IS LUDICROUS!!!!! I am sorry but I am sick of Cisco finally after years and years of searching finding something they are running around telling the world about. Cisco has found a way to make the JTREE suboptimal under very corner case, non-real world scenarios. I would die to see their JUNOS configuration for these filters. I have personally witnessed JUNOS ACLs well over 10000 terms run at line-rate on an M160 with no performance hit and with counters. I have heard rumors that Cisco can make the ACL run at rates you mentioned even with 10 lines or "terms" not to mention the 5000 you mentioned. Bravo for Cisco. They have found a way to break it. However, I am being told by Juniper that this is fixed or will be in the next JUNOS revision. It is not a H/W issue but a S/W issue. Trust me, Juniper won a lot of early business based on the ACL performance.

    As far as re-ordering on the T-Series. You are correct in that this possibility "exists". However after the M160 issues this was given a very high priority within Juniper. It's a system based on parallelism.. period. when you have that you have the chance for re-ordering. The T-Series architecturally does everything possible to avoid re-ordering before cells cross the fabric and if they are out of order there are buffers to fix. With 40G interfaces I am not sure how that will be handled but that has been a "day-one" thing. We'll see what happens.

    I am more convinced we'll see parallel 192s and bonded 192s way before we start to see native 40G interfaces in use. The CRS-1 will be a competitor in my opinion like none other. We'll see what falls into place.

    the s/w issues you mention are right and wrong. some of the features you say junos is missing is accurate. they do NSF today. Their support for GR of the protocols kills cisco who is way behind in that arena. But above and beyond doing in-service upgrades what else am I missing by not going to IOX in JUNOS?

    pat
    sunfanz 12/5/2012 | 3:16:34 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers Xbar,

    You mentioned, ".... only two boxes in the Ethernet edge and aggregation area that are really worth looking at: the former Timetra aka 7750 and the Cisco 7600 routers."

    Wonder if you have any experience on Riverstone 15008? These guys seems to be pitching a very compelling story from an OS perspective, modularity down to line card process level, patching without service impact and etc. Did some due diligence with my friend in Europe, seems to have some +ve comments.
    sunfanz 12/5/2012 | 3:16:34 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers goundan,

    You made a good point, ".... shows some kind of a consolidated God box."

    Coming from an operator environment, I was trained to be religion-less and not to believe in God, especially "God Box".

    Having multiple (NOT MANY) solid and working boxes working together seems to be less risky.

    "God box" proposition is nothing new in this industry but it looks like no one has been hugely successful so far.
    AAL5 12/5/2012 | 3:16:35 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers Pat,

    again I really don't think the fact that you got a couple of guys from Cisco to join Juniper proves anything. Its a 2 way street you know. People want a change for whatever reason, get a good offer and go. Are you telling me that if you didn't get a good offer you wouldn't do the same. We have Ex-Juniper guys, and you have Ex-Cisco guys. So what.

    In regards to your query about how IOX will solve a problem JUNOS cannot let me give a few examples:

    - H/W, in particular the NP is design to be able to perform 40G processing of packets with ACLs, CAR,marking and Queuing at line rate. In tests I have seen when 5000 filters were applied the T series router performance drops to less than 1%. I guess your J-Tree lookup can't handle any more lookups as its also used for forwarding(?). In real customer deployment scenarios they want to run L3 features, using a T series they are in for a big surprise.

    This really shows Junipers strategy which has been quite successful I do give it to them. Get to the market ASAP with a "good enough" system solution and try to grab the market. Fine strategy from buisness perspective when your are trying to compete with CSCO. But the system solution often has deficiences because it was designed in a rush. Such as the M-160 packet out of order issue which is a fundamental system architecture problem, that was a real mess. Once customers found out about this they started replacing M-160s from their core. Lucky for Juniper the T-640 came out, which came out well before CRS. Although I have heard the sequencing issues still are not totally resolved in the 640, it is possible to get reordered packets. It will be interesting also when their 40G interface comes out to see how it sequences packets, as gluing 2 20Gig engines together is not going to work!

    Does 40Gig and CRS have it sequencing issues? No, as the system architecture was designed correctly.

    Customers eventually find out about the system architecture issues and they get really annoyed. Software bugs, hardware faults are can be replaced/upgraded etc. System architecture issues are a *major issue*, essentially you have to Junk the box and start again.

    - System design/Fabric should support multicast *without* affecting other unicast/multicast traffic on the router. Can CRS do this, yes. But there are major deficiencies with 640 in this area. Juniper cut corners in implementing a non-replicating switch fabric, and the ingress replication implemention can cause packet loss, jitter and impact of peformance on Unicast.

    - Fabric/System design is made to scale to 21 Chasis system. Yeah it does seem a lot doesn't it. Who knows how many a customer in 10 years will want to join together and configure with multiple Virtual routers. Better to have the ability to scale up a system that is suppose to be around for 10+ years.

    - In regards to the XR software, service providers want the ability to be able to have 5 9s availablility and that means you have to support non-stop forwarding when the s/w is being upgraded. Can Junos do this, well yes if you want your BGP patched. But my understanding is that what you can upgrade without affecting traffic or doing a restart is very limited, correct me if I am wrong. Junos clearly has advantages over IOS, but XR is a different matter. Nearly everything in XR can be upgraded on the fly without affecting traffic. This is a big deal to customers. Bugs happen, Juniper has them, Cisco has them, customers want them fixed quickly and *not* to be service affecting. As Juniper does not use a micro-kernal based OS they are going to have a hard time meeting this requirement. I guess its possible, but no evidence of it yet.

    Pat could you address some of the architectural issues mentioned above. If I have got my facts wrong please tell me, or even point me to test results that prove otherwise.

    Its nice to have a civilized conversation on a LR forum for once :)

    Regards,

    AAL5
    goundan 12/5/2012 | 3:16:36 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers Cisco's Metro Node router parade mentions a whole host of routers from the 12000 through the 7600 along with P-Cube, Tazz, etc. Given that BT's architecture shown in figure 2 in the BT 21CN Metro Node article shows some kind of a consolidated God box, is Cisco going to merge all these disparate products into a single box over time, or just pair them up independently and sell them as a node? This is quite confusing since the BT powerpoint states some kind of a God Box over time which includes SDH & CWDM.

    Is Alcatel planning to extend the TiMetra box to cover the required features by reengineering the TiMetra hardware or is it going to be a case of adding other boxes?

    Is Siemens/Juniper planning a son of ERX?

    Can someone in the know enlighten the rest of us monkeys going bananas over this?
    tsat 12/5/2012 | 3:16:38 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers
    Sure, as soon as Cisco provides Juniper with a CRS-1, this will be a great discussion! I mean, Cisco has a T640, so it would only be fair...

    Otherwise, it will be a pretty one-sided discussion.

    -tsat

    -----


    Is CRS-1 'better' in this respect than the T-640. I'll tell you what, why don't you start with the technical advantages of T-640 over CRS-1 in regards to h/w and then s/w, then I'll add in the CRS info.

    That is unless you don't want to discuss the technical advantages/disadvantages of the 640 vs CRS for *some reason*.
    boozon 12/5/2012 | 3:16:39 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers Definitely!
    We all know that Alcatel will never get out of FT (let's stick to the french scenario for simplicity) but how much can it can leverage on the Huawei/ZTE prices to squeeze Alcatel?
    Unfortunately, the cocktail of politics and prices is far from being a clear one, especially in the land of bordeaux and burgundy...
    boozon
    andropat 12/5/2012 | 3:16:40 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers AAL5,

    What I am saying is that many left cisco to come to juniper from that group and the reason was there was a lot of overlap in skillset from what cisco NG was trying to accomplish vs. what JUNOS already was providing. I would "hope" that IOX has some advantages in infrastructure over JUNOS given JUNOS started being built in 1996/1997.

    I haven't heard yet however how IOX is going to solve a problem that JUNOS cannot. Will it process "real-time" packets faster, more efficiently, at more scale, etc.,?? In a single-unit product like CRS1 standalone or T640 there simply won't be a need in my opinion as these will reach interface limitations before reaching OS limitations. Sure the OS can be enhanced a bit but again I just haven't seen a pressing need yet.

    In the multi-chassis there may be a better argument against JUNOS' ability to scale. However, the whole matrix concept has been one Juniper has worked on for years. And I respect their talent base so am confident in their ability to deliver a multi-chassis solution "near-term" that works.

    The H/W as well was built mostly with a "day-one" design philosophy to go to multi-chassis so again the matrix should operate well. The CRS-1 no doubt has also been in development quite a while but the T-Series has been baked extensively as a stand-alone unit and in labs as a matrix solution for years. this will be an advantage.

    pat
    literight 12/5/2012 | 3:16:42 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers If memory serves right, the current network being replaced is full of antiquated, worthless equipment. It is a veritable junkyard mostly early Cisco and later models. As a result (the IP network termed "Colossus") is one giant patchwork breaking every second. Anything can break it easily, from software/hardware upgrades to bringing new users/networks on-line. Operational costs alone probably run in the billions, not to mention huge ongoing Capex.

    So it must have been a slam dunk decision to shy away from the one vendor that has been causing such widespread havoc in their network.
    AAL5 12/5/2012 | 3:16:43 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers Andropat said "most people have used it as a launching ramp to get into Juniper."

    Come on, and be serious. Do you not think that is a 'slight exhageration'. This is what I mean about people being so blinded by the company they work for, it makes it extremely difficult to have a discussion on the merits of various product when people take this approach to debate.

    If I was a 'Cisco-Fan boy' I guess I would be mentioning BCN and the fact that a bunch of Juniper guys came to Cisco via them. But what exactly does that prove. Nothing.

    In regards to what you said about the software some of what you said may have validity to a certain degree, but the foundation and infrastructure of IOS-XR has a lot of advantages over Junos. If you want we can compare them, rather than 'throw mud' at each other.

    Regarding the hardware, it definitely does matter to customers. They want a system that can scale as their core grows, can support L3 and higher features at line rate. Customers want to be sure that as their requirements grow, they can scale the switch fabric, control processing, interfaces etc. I know this for a fact as I hear it from major Service Providers.

    Is CRS-1 'better' in this respect than the T-640. I'll tell you what, why don't you start with the technical advantages of T-640 over CRS-1 in regards to h/w and then s/w, then I'll add in the CRS info.

    That is unless you don't want to discuss the technical advantages/disadvantages of the 640 vs CRS for *some reason*.

    Looking forward to an interesting discussion :)

    AAL5
    andropat 12/5/2012 | 3:16:44 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers Funny to hear the s/w on the crs-1 is better. it's been in development for years and most people have used it as a launching ramp to get into Juniper. I know they have hired at least a half dozen people from cisco in this area.

    the s/w being "baked" is an understatement. IOX will take years to get completely right not to mention get the right features implemented.. without even considering the porting over to the GSR, OSR (if at all), and so forth.

    not sure on the h/w. but in my opinion that's not where it matters. all the h/w (t and crs-1) is more than adequate for any sane deployment. my .02 cents.

    pat
    AAL5 12/5/2012 | 3:16:45 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers xbar said "CRS1 seems to me a much better architected system (both SW and HW) than any T box and cluster."

    I agree with you on this one, CRS s/w and h/w IMO has some advantages over 640 h/w and Junos.

    But Juniper does have 2 advantages:
    - Time to Market, 640 has been out for sometime now.
    - Software has had more time to be 'baked' in widespread customer live networks. This is the only way to flush out some software issues that are difficult to find with internal testing.

    xbar said "The real action is at the edge and enterprise."

    The Edge is where the money is. Not much to be made in the core, but it 'pulls along' other buisness.

    AAL5
    xbar 12/5/2012 | 3:16:46 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers Sunfanz,

    Yep. There are only two boxes in the Ethernet edge and aggregation area that are really worth looking at: the former Timetra aka 7750 and the Cisco 7600 routers.

    JNPR does not play in this area yet. Everybody is speculating in them wasting another >>$0.5B or more on another startup (F5???). I beg to disagree. However JNPR bought a compression startup for 300M; which IMHO does not makes sense at all. Can anybody let me know what technology was bought and why.

    xbar
    gbennett 12/5/2012 | 3:16:46 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers Comrade Nietzsche,
    You seem to be pointing your Fickle Finger of Fault at Light Reading for their earlier story on Marconi/21CN !!!

    http://www.lightreading.com/do...

    Shame on you, comrade. In fact it's the Dresdner Kleinwort Wasserstein analyst(s) who have egg on their faces.

    I'll point out a couple of things about which you may not be aware.

    1. When a journalist is allowed to attribute a quote to an analyst organisation then there isn't the same requirement to obtain an independent verification of the information (compared to, say an "off the record" source working for any organisation who has a vested interest in the story). Such verification is the analyst's job, and if they screw up then it's their bad. For Ray Le Maistre to have wasted time finding another source for this story would have been redundant effort, and he might have missed the scoop.

    2. If Ray had stopped there, he would have been in the clear, but he actually went a stage further in terms of journalistic ethics. If you look at the headline (headline, mind you, not something buried in the body text) the article screams at you "Here is what an ANALYST is saying about the 21CN deal".

    Remember, it's LR's job to report on news, and for a deal of this magnitude what the DKW folksare saying is clearly news. A story like this has a very definite expiration date.

    So if, comrade Nietzsche, your philosophy obliges you to apportion blame in situations like this, then please point it in the right direction :-)

    Cheers,
    Geoff

    Disclaimer: I worked for Light Reading/Heavy Reading for two years, but left in August 2004. And contrary to other rumours, Ray and I are just good friends ;-)
    sunfanz 12/5/2012 | 3:16:46 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers Hi Xbar,

    You mentioned, "At the edge ALA will push JNPR aside ...." .

    Could you elaborated further on this? Do you mean the Timetra SR 7750 box as an edge device?

    I am also from operator environment and looking at evaluating the SR box. Would like to get some of your expereince if you happen to have any to share.

    Thx.
    zher 12/5/2012 | 3:16:48 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers even lucent doesn't have product in, they resell Juniper routers
    xbar 12/5/2012 | 3:16:49 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers AAL5,

    I agree that JNPR will not be going belly up soon. Even if they will stop all their R&D and acquisitions, they will be selected as a second supplier anyway. In today's world there are only two core router supplier CSCO and JNPR and there is nobody on the horizon. Seems this will not change for years to go. CRS1 seems to me a much better architected system (both SW and HW) than any T box and cluster. I do think it is for CSCO to loose the battle in this important market.

    The real action is at the edge and enterprise. At the edge ALA will push JNPR aside IMHO and in enterprise JNPR does not have any chance even with the Peribit sales team.

    xbar
    Honestly 12/5/2012 | 3:16:49 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers Hey all, God has spoken. Thanks AALASS, oh, I mean AAL5. You will have to wait to see though, If either company got the lions share of core and edge. Juniper getting Matrix in may be agood sign for them. Now got back and kiss some Chambers a'".

    AAL5 12/5/2012 | 3:16:51 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers Really children its time to all stop drinking from the company Kool Aid. You know, you can actually work for a company and not be blinded by the marketing B.S.

    Some directed comments:

    Honestly - You are clueless. I have read a number of your posts and its my honest opinion you have 0% to contribute.

    Xbar - Juniper is definitely not in decline.

    Andropat - Yes Juniper/Cisco is in core and Edge, this is a wise decision if you're looking for your suppliers to beat each other up over price.


    AAL5
    andropat 12/5/2012 | 3:16:54 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers xbar,

    quit being ciscos continued whipping boy.. BT has spoken... just like the GIG-BE project spoke last year.. Juniper in core AND edge...

    sorry Crisco...

    Pat
    Fhunton 12/5/2012 | 3:16:56 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers So what are BTs plan exactly, are they going to build this network as a seperate entity ans then once all is built, switch all traffic to this network ( i know this sounds simplistic but is that the general idea)

    For instance, BT use Nortel for DWDM and they have a big install base of this. Is the kit then just destined for the bin once Ciena kit etc is installed?

    Or will the new kit be used with old kit of this new network?
    narendran 12/5/2012 | 3:16:56 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers Guess the 'out' it is more for the DSLAM part. Their IP DSLAM is more like the flagship product. I think TiMetra is more like a consolation prize.
    xbar 12/5/2012 | 3:16:57 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers Honestly,

    Your cheerleading for Juniper just shows you continously drink from the Juniper loony toons' coolaid and Honestly you cannot accept new realities.

    Juniper is in decline; any company buying a compression routing solution for $300M is desperate to show more than $1M revenue per quarter in enterprise. Next quarter they will show 15M or 1500% increase over this quarter.

    Grow up!

    xbar
    OptoScot 12/5/2012 | 3:17:01 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers On the political front there is no way France Telecom would snub a French supplier in the way BT has snubbed Marconi and it's highly unlikely the Germans would either. There's no level playing field in Europe.
    Honestly 12/5/2012 | 3:17:01 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers xbar, or xvar. No, just fact that Juniper also won with Siemens in the metro. Cisco is certainly not acting like a leader, more like the child follower. Hey Mike, do another press release.
    donniall 12/5/2012 | 3:17:01 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers Its a measure of Nortels decline that they didn't even make the short-list let alone the final supplier list .........
    Makes you wonder how secure the Nortel/BT partnership is in the enterprise space (ie Meridian et al) ...
    xbar 12/5/2012 | 3:17:01 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers Honestly,

    Honestly you have no clue. Rubish.

    xbar
    Honestly 12/5/2012 | 3:17:02 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers Juniper won the metro through Siemens.
    Rumor also has it that since Juniper is deploying Matrix through LU in the core that CRS cannot do multi-chases. Juniper may have won the lion share in the core. No matter what Volpi says on, or off record the 12000 is said, to be the box that will ship. Big question is whether Cisco can eventually run the CRS silicon in the 12000. They announced the SW, but Cisco is acting like this is their first routing win in history. No Volpi, not taking back core market share in Q2, Q4. Just losing a tiny bit slower. You may be the no 2 in this deal. Looks like China Telecom to me.
    Kevin Mitchell 12/5/2012 | 3:17:02 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers From yesterday's LR article:
    Marconi Corp. plc is "so advanced with its products and so entrenched with BT Group plc that its selection [for BT's 21CN project] looks certain," according to analysts at Dresdner Kleinwort Wasserstein.

    So, I don't think these guy got enough incremental colour on their conference calls. Nice that they tried to trump the announcment by one day with some bold analysis and predictions.
    materialgirl 12/5/2012 | 3:17:02 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers Perhaps this explains the timing of JNPR's acquisiiton of Kagoor.
    rocksolid 12/5/2012 | 3:17:03 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers Is this the start of the end for Nortel as well as Marconi?

    ------------

    Um, esandman, you need to get out more. This is nowhere near the "start" of Nortel's decline - that started 4 years ago. You mention Nortel's loss in optical, but do you realize that BT is just one more drop in an already over-flowing bucket! They've already lost MCI and Qwest, which were both massive optical customers for Nortel. To think they had nearly 50% market share in optical transport in 2000.
    allidia 12/5/2012 | 3:17:03 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers Since it is unclear that Ericsson can provide upgradeable TMG's it would appear likely that there is still some gateway work to be awarded. Besides Sonus who can do this as a subcontractor or is it more likely that Marconi and BT will reach an agreement and snag 50% of the I-node contract... I have to believe that with the snubbing of Marconi and Alcatel's shortchange that OFCOM may revisit breaking up BT. Europeans get real nasty when it means job losses.
    rocksolid 12/5/2012 | 3:17:03 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers Nortel seems to be continuing to achieve complete success in seeking to become a complete non-player in the PTT space.

    Apart from Marconi they seem to be the only other major telecom vendor for which there is to be no role in the 21CN.

    Graham Beniston 12/5/2012 | 3:17:04 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers Yes, its the access Media Gateways that will be partly in the MSANS. But BT needs Trunk Media Gateways, and they appeared to want them upgradable to SBCs, which is why they teamed SONUS with Marconi. It is not clear where they are going now with these products.
    zhuhong3358 12/5/2012 | 3:17:04 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers From yesterday's news, Marconi was 40% in MSAN. But today's news are totally different. I doubt if Lightreading keeps on expressing news like that, will face the same fate as Marconi.
    MP_UK 12/5/2012 | 3:17:05 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers
    The BT presentations on the web suggest that the VoIP / POTS conversion happens in the MSAN. There seems to be various options, but a H.248 solution seems likely.
    Graham Beniston 12/5/2012 | 3:17:07 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers Ericsson claim that Media Gateways and SBCs are part of the Metro Node equipment, which they describe as "complex". They claim not to know any further details. BT have agreed to brief me on SBCs next week.
    andybryant 12/5/2012 | 3:17:07 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers Oh dear Nortel...

    Even with a good LH and HDX footprint in BT Global Services network, Nortel hasn't even managed a mention in the 21CN.

    What of the next gen CPL, the OME6500, MPE.

    Is this the start of the end for Nortel as well as Marconi?
    Peter Heywood 12/5/2012 | 3:17:07 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers Ericsson. It's part of the i-node stuff
    materialgirl 12/5/2012 | 3:17:08 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers Where is VoIP in all of this? No softswitch, media gateway or SBC was mentioned.
    Access Master 12/5/2012 | 3:17:08 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers Marconi have been digging this whole for themselves for years, their arrogance is well renowned in BT circles.

    As for Huawei, the rumour is this was definately not a cost measure. Huawei have reportedly been the best performing supplier in the whole tender process. Quite a feat considering they have only been here a couple of years; the most interesting rumor I have heard is that Huawei are considering a bid for Marconi as this would give them a ready built service organisation.
    MP_UK 12/5/2012 | 3:17:09 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers
    Alcatel are out of the access (DSLAM / MSAN) space, but in, with the 7750, in the Metro space.

    HTH
    ozip 12/5/2012 | 3:17:09 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers Perhaps this is the path of all things but in conjunction with trimming margins to the bone, I understand that these guys have demanded unprecedented disclosure of IPR. This leads down a slippery path for the equipment business who survive on margin exceeding 50% where guys like Dell survive on 12%. Although I would alway argue that many of the vendors waste their good fortune, for some of them it funds risk taking that results in innovation and new technology, and drives the venture business. Change this model and provide all of the IPR to every customer (sounds very ultaistic, just like the GPL) and you end up with only (I mean only) the products that the customer want now and innovation is left to the customers. In my expereience, telco demand the innovation that 50% brings but only want to pay 12%, you cannot have it both ways. If you want to see how this works out, take a look at Cablelabs and the data projects.

    OZIP
    Scott Clavenna 12/5/2012 | 3:17:10 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers Out? Looks like they're in to me, at least for the TiMetra Router (7750).

    Scott
    OSXman 12/5/2012 | 3:17:10 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers What does this mean?

    http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/05...
    hyperunner 12/5/2012 | 3:17:11 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers All the suppliers in this deal have trimmed margins to the bone, and in some cases beyond. Like the GIGBE contract last year, in some ways it's better not to be a winner here! (Only kidding - it's better to have some revenue than none).

    I'm puzzled over the split in Juniper supply. Siemens will be supplying the ERX boxes in the Metro portion of this network to do classic BRAS. But then Lucent is supplying the M,and T-series core routers. Is this another way for BT to screw margin out of its suppliers? In other words continue to play off Siemens against Lucent? Also, these are the exact boxes BT is using today in these parts of the network - so shouldn't it be called the 20CN?

    I like the comment about BT needing Bell Labs to do the "network planning, integration, deployment and support". IMHO it'll need a few Nobel Laureates to work out how to nail up an end to end service over this mish mash of different boxes!

    Marconi stock price is in real trouble - down to -ú2.05 just now. That's a 42% drop on the day. Ouch.

    hR
    MP_UK 12/5/2012 | 3:17:11 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers
    Have to disagree here. It's true that Alcatel have a very sucessfull DSLAM that works well, but it's totally out of date for a next gen network. It's an ATM DSLAM (although you can get a GE port) it doesn't do VoIP, IP routing, MPLS, etc.

    The Huawei box is, as far as I can make out, the most advanced DSLAM available - in terms of protocols supported. FTEL's new DSLAM is up and running, and should be stable for 21CN timescales. Both these companies are very competative on price, and (particularly in the former case) give good support.

    Marconi builds a nice DSLAM, with support for lots of protocols. I guess they couldn't / wouldn't sell it cheap enough, a shame for them.
    jes 12/5/2012 | 3:17:12 AM
    re: BT Unveils 21CN Suppliers
    I guess BT's primary criteria was just the cost, not much the technology..
    ALA is considered to be one of the best in the Access, and not selecting ALA is, just based on the cost advantage coming along with Huewai's products, though its techincally inferior. ALA is a proven Access leader among RBOCs and the Europe..

    BT decision to leave Marconi is a major blow to Marcnois future...
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